Affirmative Action

[S7wede]

Do you think people (groups of legit citizens) who were displaced aren't entitled to their land back?

I would love to see the actual figure of people displaced (from historical settlements, and not from towns created after the colonisation) and compare it to the number of people who have been given farms/land. I'm willing to make a solid bet that the number will be in the black (pun not intended) rather than the red.

 

[alpha777]

Do you think people (groups of legit citizens) who were displaced aren't entitled to their land back?

Are talking about the matabele the zulu chased out or the khoi the xhosa chased out? Anyway they say about an eighth of sa was populated when whites first got here. Yes i do believe that land should be restored by the way. If it can be proven.

 

[alpha777]

The problem is they don't believe the money and property that currently sits with the particular 9% should be there. It is believed to have been stolen and never worked for.

I agree. My domestic was tellinb me the other day that her children believe that whites do not have financial problems. One of the kids goes to a model c school

 

[warchylde]

Do you think people (groups of legit citizens) who were displaced aren't entitled to their land back?

They are but not all property previously belonged to displaced people. If you wish to infer that then you have to hand all the property back to the khoisan people as stated.

 

[Kosmik]

I agree. My domestic was tellinb me the other day that her children believe that whites do not have financial problems. One of the kids goes to a model c school

My wallet would like a word with her kids.

 

[Merlin]

No I am not, I didn't just say what I said out of ignorance. I've witnessed this for myself in the corporate world. I never said they were racist, I simply said that they'd prefer hiring a demographic they could better relate to. From my observations this is fact.



No relevance



You see, this is where things start getting stupid and where non-whites could say the very same thing about white South Africans.



Well I'm coloured and I am enjoying increasing amounts of economic health as the days go by, I climbed the corporate ladder due to me being determined and always keeping my eye on my goals. Now I run two businesses, both of which are very sustainable.

I'm not whining, I just gave you my take on the subject and you went to go and make it all personal.

Re: first point. And what you've seen goes, right? I've been for countless interviews where I >assume< I was passed over because I was the lone pale ranger in sight. Not that they're racist - they probably just prefer hiring their own demographic, right?

Re: second point. Why is it not relevant? It's the same theory as yours?

Re: third point. You're right, perhaps I do have a delusional sense of entitlement as a "White" guy. From now on I am going to sit on my arse as a result of post-Apartheid oppression and demand free water, free electricity, subsidised transport, affirmative action in my respect, the blinders-type view when I transgress the laws which are mere guidelines and bitch at the "Black" oppressors for the next few decades. What a crock.

Re: last point. I'm sure you've done well for yourself and that you are a smart and hard worker. However - and this applies more to the "Blacks" than the "Coloureds" - do you not feel, even just a tingle, that maybe, just maybe, your achievements may be in part due to AA/BEE/etc.?

It is entirely possible for most people to achieve great things on their own, but if there is legislation that purposefully promotes them over others, the question will ALWAYS be asked.

None of what I said was personal. My response is counteracting your debate. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Brieuse]

I don't think we are the only country, I believe in Malaysia there is or was AA in favour of the Malays against the Chinese minority who owned 60% of the wealth at that time.

That is correct. London Times haven't heard of the article either.

 

[Sonic2k]

SO then... another fake article designed by internet trolls to stir up emotions and result in a 12-page thread.

 

[luxe]

SO then... another fake article designed by internet trolls to stir up emotions and result in a 12-page thread.

Not a fake article at all, the real article was linked somewhere in this thread.

Thanks for stopping by to troll.

 

[zippy]

There is no such newspaper as the "London Times". There is "The Times", which is a UK newspaper and which I get every day(I live 90 miles from London). I can't recall ever reading that in that paper. Being about SA, I'm sure I would have noticed it.

 

[nightjar]

The majority of "Black" South Africa is suffering from a severely delusional sense of entitlement.

Hard work, learning, respect and tolerance will get you far in life. Whining about an inferiority complex will get you nowhere.

As someone once said, with a slightly different context, AA is for quitters.

Unfortunately most South Africans regard a job (and fat salary) not as a privilege but as a right with none of the obligations that a job has traditionally entailed.

AA will ALWAYS be necessary far as long as its beneficiaries think that pre-colonial languages are adequate in the modern world.

 

[RogueTr00per]

Just stumbled upon this thread today. Don't have time to go thru all 12 pages yet, but I might as well reply to a couple of posts as I'm seeing a lot of ignorant posts and disturbingly racist views here.

<snip>
I for one cannot get my mind around how Chinese people now qualify towards BEE, but indiginous coloureds not?
<snip>

How do you mean Coloured people do not qualify for BEE?

Regarding Chinese people and BEE: It is only South African citizens (pre 1994) of Chinese descent that are considered "Black" by EE legislation, as per the High Court ruling on 18 June 2008. The estimated number of people this includes numbers around 10,000 which is less than 1% (approximately 0.02%) of the South African population of 49 million. During Apartheid, Chinese people were classified as a sub-group of the "Coloured" group, as were Indians and "other asiatics". Chinese in South Africa were subject to Group Area laws in most parts of South Africa. One exception to this was Cape Town where the community numbered around 500 individuals, so it was not worth the governments time and effort to demarcate a "Chinese" area. Because there was no "Chinese" area in Cape Town, those who did not own property already were limited very much in new property acquisitions as the Group Areas act still applied. If they were living in a "white" area, they likely did not own the property and were lucky that neighbours kept quiet and didn't rat them out. After 1984, Groups Areas was relaxed somewhat for Chinese due to good trade relations with Taiwan. However, there was still the condition that neighbours had to consent to their presence. If anyone objected then it was a no go.

EDIT: For the record, Chinese South Africans did not seek recognition regarding EE (employment equity) to be advantaged based on skin colour. However, to remain silent would have meant being disadvantaged by virtue of being viewed as "white", despite being viewed as non-white pre 1994 by the Apartheid government. For 9 years, from 1999 (when the EEA came into being) up to 2008 Chinese were excluded from the act and hence did not qualify for job applications or tenders that required applicants to be "Black".

Regarding the way the ANC government has implemented these policies and gone about righting the wrongs of the past leaves much to be desired, and no doubt the ruling elite have wrongly benefited by becoming super-rich at the expense of the masses.

because certain groups of people have such an inferiority complex that they are perpetually disadvantaged

Every heard of slavery? http://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&so...4InXDQ&usg=AFQjCNF7hvvpye1l_DnFASNUcZt2BGvSdQ

http://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&so...t72yDQ&usg=AFQjCNEOULhGG5lnytgMOD0UV2617NhoNQ

 

[Kimosabe]

Ummm, where is the link to the story? cos I can't find it anywhere. I can find the quote, but not the story.

 

[TheHiveMind]

Every heard of slavery?

Does a day go by when we don't hear about it?

 

[RogueTr00per]

Does a day go by when we don't hear about it?

Well the question was asked (below) why would the USA or the UK need AA, hence i brought it up.

Can anyone say why a country like the US or Britain would need AA?

 

[RogueTr00per]

There are three things that can change the poor to wealthy. They have to be used together

1. World class education - not some watered down muck like we have now
2. A perception change - the world does not owe you anything. If you want something work for it.
3. You can never build a society where discrimination is part of law. As long as any form of discrimination exists you will have an unbalanced society. Positions should be gained/achieved by ability, merit and hard work. Not handed to you because of your skin tone or who you know.


Example:

If you have two water buckets with lots of water in the one and almost nothing in the other, you pour water from the full one over to the one with almost nothing what do you get? You are taking away from the one that has and giving it to the one that doesn't. Instead of removing the water from the one, one should rather go to a tap and fill the empty bucket.

You CANNOT enrich the masses by taking from those that have, you are only reshuffling money and handing it to those that have no way of knowing how to use it correctly (education point 1) you are only creating more poor with this. However if you build the foundation correctly you supply them poor with a tap to fill the bucket. This will uplift the whole society and not just a particular group. Businesses will flourish, the tax base will enlarge and you will have an economy that returns to working order. Bringing about a better future for EVERYONE.

Good post. I would add though that they didnt so much empty the full bucket as much as they just tried to stop the flow to that bucket. Both buckets need to have a constant source of water flow but obviously the empty bucket is more urgent.

And as unfair as some may view discrimination, a helping hand should be given to those who's parents were discriminated against (by law) where necessary. 17 years into democracy and the ANC have certainly stuffed it up though. They should have started with Education, as per your point 1. Then perhaps by now, AA would not be as necessary anymore.

EDIT: Redressing imbalances is a very complicated matter. For example, if you have a young (black) professional who ostensibly is doing well financially, he/she likely has aging parents who suffered under Apartheid and who are possibly poorer for it. If they have no retirement funds, that is quite a burden for a young person to bear.

 

[RogueTr00per]

Originally Posted by krycor
I find the whole 1 black person wants what 3 white people want to work for funny. What position is this? Are the three candidates on the exact same education and experience criteria? Also please explain to me how you recruit for a position without specifying a salary range because generally this is specified, heck most agencies will ask tell you realistically what you looking at prior. Also recruiting and looking for jobs is like selling things, would you buy a diamond ring from me for R100? So its all about perception and living up to it. I sure as heck learnt from from underselling.

It’s a skilled position. Everybody is educated and skilled equally ( some cases the whites have more But we want a BEE person)
Yes you put a salary range. We also have patty flippers applying for the same position. You are free to send your CV even if the salary is not within your range. You can negotiate.

Why do you find this funny? A white man in this country at a certain age will be looked over several times because of the BEE status they bring with them.
Black Skilled people know that they are in demand and can ask what they want. Supply and demand. The demand in this position is high but the supply low ( BEE candidates)

Are u willing to divulge what the job title is for this position? I'm very curious...

 

[RogueTr00per]

Basic education was guaranteed when the apartheid curtain fell.

That must have been when the government waved their magic wand and all schools became equal.

I think the point that noxibox is making is that it's ludicrous for you to expect that the standard of education at all schools suddenly became equal overnight purely because on 27 April 1994 the first democratic elections were held.

Yes including tertiary education - school 12 years studying to be a doctor 5 years (Excluding compulsory practical years) so that should leave us with quite a few PD's that are almost done qualifying. Engineering is 3 to 5 years so they should have completed by now.

And what are the odds of a child excelling at school and tertiary education if the support structures are not there for them? If your parents were blue collar workers and not educated and you lived in a township when u started school in 1994 what are your chances of becoming a doctor or engineer? You'd be lucky just to matriculate with decent results. Sure, there would be those few that defy the odds and succeed despite of all the obstacles but they would be quite scarce indeed.

 

[WilD_CaT]

Educating children is easy.

1. Children need to get to school on time, sober and not high on drugs.
2. They need to sit in their sits, keep quiet, face forward and listen to the teachers.
3. Teachers must be able to read and write and do the maths themselves.
4. Parents need to make sure kids do their homework and go to bed at a reasonable hour.

Again, I refer you to this great piece by Walter Williams, he speaks about these things at the end of this lecture, where he talks about black schools and why some of them or so bad compared to "white" schools and why some of the private black schools in poor neighbourhoods produce tremendous successes compared to their public school counterparts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKgHc6bWqZ4

It starts with the parents...

 

[alpha777]

Educating children is easy.

1. Children need to get to school on time, sober and not high on drugs.
2. They need to sit in their sits, keep quiet, face forward and listen to the teachers.
3. Teachers must be able to read and write and do the maths themselves.
4. Parents need to make sure kids do their homework and go to bed at a reasonable hour.

Again, I refer you to this great piece by Walter Williams, he speaks about these things at the end of this lecture, where he talks about black schools and why some of them or so bad compared to "white" schools and why some of the private black schools in poor neighbourhoods produce tremendous successes compared to their public school counterparts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKgHc6bWqZ4

It starts with the parents...

To have a good school u don't need money. You need three 'things' good teachers, keen students, and involved parents.