By due process, do you mean court proceedings? That will simply never work. There are are high ranking officials from regional police superintendents, to high-ranking customs officers, to mayors, to premiers to even the executive that are paid with drug money to look the other way. They cannot be brought down via the judicial system as very often they control the evidence chain.
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Alleged robber kills himself
- Thread starter schumi
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By due process, do you mean court proceedings? That will simply never work. There are are high ranking officials from regional police superintendents, to high-ranking customs officers, to mayors, to premiers to even the executive that are paid with drug money to look the other way. They cannot be brought down via the judicial system as very often they control the evidence chain.
I actually support vigilante or mob justice. There are innocent people that die at the hands of mobs I know, but there are people who are in jail for cimes they didn't do also.
Just over a decade ago while still a teenager I was walking at Joburg CBD and then all of a sudden a young man was cornered and was slapped around because he stole a woman's coat. I managed to jump in and I slapped him, that's before me finding out what he did. I'd do it again today if given the chance. Criminals must never be safe or feel secure.
I mean even last month there have been a couple of robberies at my security complex. Luckily no one was injured, but plasma TVs and laptops were stolen. Enough is enough.
My sister's ex husband is a cop and he told me that the police don't take cases seriously unless it's a rape or murder. Robbery case files are at bottom drawers gathering dust.
Arthur
Honorary Master
Yes, our principal governmental and social institutions - especially policing and courts - are in profound crisis, far deeper than most realise. Repairing the social order means we have to repair the policing and justice system as well, because without them we are sunk. If history teaches us anything it's that when the police and justice systems are no longer regarded as protecting and serving the common good then that society is headed for certain disaster, as surely as night follows day.
I am still of the view that there is more to lose than to gain by abandoning the rule of law. The alternative is ghastly. A government of laws is preferable to a government of men.
I understand.
So which better serves the social good: seeing justice slide into anarchy and leaving each individual and random mob to dispense its own form of justice? Or redouble our efforts to restore policing and criminal justice to their rightful role (invincible, incorruptible, impartial), making sure we ourselves do not contribute further to the breakdown?
If we do not choose the former, we implicitly accept the rule of the strong rather than the just. That is path to war.
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The answer to your question is both. The justice system of the courts with the police, and the justice system of the streets with the mob.
Arthur
Honorary Master
Fundamentally incompatible, in principle.
The latter (mob/vigilante justice) operates subjectively, with no habeas corpus, tests of evidence, no hearing before an impartial tribunal, no recourse. It cannot be used in the same sentence as justice.
The former - when it operates - does so according to objective rules known all, before an impartial arbiter. It is inter alia what keeps us from being savages.
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dualmeister
Honorary Master
If only more criminals who kill themselves. Starting with no 1 ....
ForceFate
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It was only a matter of time....
ForceFate
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He extinguished his own life when faced with prospect of arrest. He had options and in no way under duress. He chose the barrel of his own gun.
I know someone whose relatives pretty much abandoned him (long story). He went through hardships and not once did he resort to life of crime to make ends meet. Today he's an upstanding member of society with plans to assist those less fortunate.
Arthur
Honorary Master
Yes. It's sad that he saw that as his only option.
Good. Glad for you and him.
I also know people who have had all the material goods life can offer and lead dirty, immoral and corrupt lives. That's sad. Other I know have not had terrible lives and yet feel dead and empty inside, that life is not worth living. That is also sad. Etc.
In all cases where humans do not reach their potential and freely choose the true, the good and the beautiful, there is stunting, diminution, pain, and waste. That's always to be regretted, even when it's self-inflicted.
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Normally mob justice occurs if there's a known criminal in the community that has caused problems for a long time. We'll take a small time drug lord for example that sells drugs to kids, i.e. nyaope. The community knows the house where the drugs are sold. The community keeps quite because the drug lord pays off police officers. If a community member complains, the police informs the drug lord who complained and then threats are made. The community live in fear in that situation. Anger boils and one day the community snap if a young kid dies of a drug overdose or something, and then mob justice takes place. This situation I'm referring to occurs in rural areas and townships.
Definitely incompatible, but it works for communities that practice this "system". Some communities beat up a criminal before handing him/her over to the cops. Most rather kill, fearing the criminal will get bail and then it's back to square one. I back mob justice where a criminal is killed.
EDIT: To people like myself that reside in surburban areas, or city centers. They must buy a gun and shoot to kill intruders.... almost like Oscar Pistorius style.
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Arthur
Honorary Master
First prize is to have a justice system that works. When it doesn't, social pathologies like vigilantism, kangaroo courts and "mob justice" set in. Very understandable, of course. But always regrettable, sub-optimal. It always ends up further subverting social order.
Which is why the State's neglect of proper policing and justice is such a serious crime against the common good. It's the fundamental raison d'etre for the state, and must be protected and preserved. If Caesar doesn't do his job, he must be removed and one appointed who will do his job.
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This I agree with. Anarchy will suck.
I'm sorry, but you are the epitome of why mob justice is for retards. You jumped in and slapped someone without knowing what he had done? I've seen video's of innocent people being stoned to death by a mob. Just because you, or people you know, have been victims of crime, does not give you licence to commit a crime.
Agree again. If only you would stop mixing ridiculous posts with your intelligent ones, you would not get such a negative reaction.
I guess in hindsight me stepping in and slapping him is wrong. I still think mob justice works for those where the justice system doesn't work, like my small time drug lord example. Nyaope is ravaging townships, the same with house robberies and hijackings in towns and the suburbs
Look, innocent folks get killed by mob justice. And they are killed in a gruesome fashion. It's a symptom of the breakdown in effective policing.
As I said before, I know that. You must realize that sometimes people get convicted and get sent to jail for something they didn't do also. Oscar is convicted and gets 6 years in jail for murder, while someone else who doesn't have the financial resources gets a life sentence for the same crime. The justice system clearly has many flaws.
F
Former member 61586
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Is Arthur a troll?
Dunno - never seen what he looks like...