Announcing a Community Wi-Fi Mesh

[RichardP]

Wow!

Let me recap -

1. I announced something that many have been talking about intending doing for years but none has managed to deliver so far.

2. I announced the imminent commencement of a business that would see delivering Internet connectivity with parameters that everyone has been only dreaming about - and for years comparing the pricing of our broadband to the worldwide levels of pricing

3. I apparently stepped onto the sore toes of the universal brotherhood of the WUG (in all its local semi-united forms) and roughed their collective feathers by pointing that by deploying their Wi-Fi links in the way they have been deploying them, they have been breaking the law. Again, irrespective if we all agree or disagree with the law - it is there to comply with.

4. I, being the friendly person I am handed my hand out by inviting everyone to join me on the premise to see anyone who wants’ to be involved with this (Wi-Fi Mesh) to gain more than he has been gaining on his own - I even offered a nice incentive...

5. Had to endure reading communistic/socialistic gibberish coming from someone who's obviously enjoying a nice spoilt life at a first world country university, clearly not having a clue that there is such a plague spreading around us called digital divide and that there are potentially millions of young people that have been left out without any chance to afford computers, enjoy computer communications as well as get access to the world of knowledge on the Internet. And I for a change Intend to help bridging that divide - with the help of the spoilt boys or without.

6. Have read many opinions that (if we don't do it the way everyone has been doing it, then) we don't know what we are doing

And I am still waiting to receive one constructive criticism. One that is made by an adult (or hopefully, a professional) - focused, substantiated and well argumented.

But then, when I posted this post on this forum, I did not know who is going to reply and what they are going to say - but what really surprised me was the pitch level of these replies.

Please, may I ask you for a tad better quality in your replies, please?

Good luck, I wish you well in your venture.. it has to be luck, 'cos knowledge isnt on your side.

 

[Xarion]

no one is against what you are doing we are all against the fact that is done in the ISM band which is for non-commercial purposes thats all, hopefulyl we will not stand on each other's toes... nonetheless good luck with it i'm sure you know the life expectancy of wisps...

 

[cb22]

Simulated environment? Okay so normally I keep out of these kinds of discussions but this is crazy. Have you even tried to do a real link? Currently in Cape Town the ISM 2.4 band usage is probably close to 150% overutilised. There is NO simulated environment that can give you real world expectations out here...

That looks like a pretty constructive crit to me, Iliyan. And by the way, using my extreamly limited knowledge of wireless theory, 95db loss would be about 600m, and thats just free space loss, not even factoring in things such as rain, trees, noise, etc, which normally ruin wifi's day.

 

[ambo]

2. I announced the imminent commencement of a business that would see delivering Internet connectivity with parameters that everyone has been only dreaming about - and for years comparing the pricing of our broadband to the worldwide levels of pricing

Two things that I have learnt in this big bad world of ours....
If it sounds too good to be true.... it usually is. And secondly - even the most wonderfully engineered products never function as well in the real world as they do in the lab.

Personal experience suggests that you have to over design by up to 200% to get the result you expect. A prime example of this is WiMAX - which has been promoted as giving amazing speeds over huge distances. Anyone who has tested it in non-ideal situations will tell you that these figures are not achievable.

I have two questrions for you Iliyan:
Have you explored the noise floor in JHB - and have you seen how high it is in the 2.4 GHz band?
Have you done a feasability study of whether the number of people interested in joining your mesh will actually give you a high enough density to ACTUALLY mesh?

 

[savagedavid]

The point is: If you want to be a WISP, then be a WISP - don't try to obfuscate what you are doing by calling it a community service. Anyway good luck with your business venture.

 

[savagedavid]

If it sounds too good to be true.... it usually is.

yeppa

 

[daffy]

Wow!
1. I announced something that many have been talking about intending doing for years but none has managed to deliver so far.

Have you researched this? More valiant efforts than yours have been made, and have failed.
Do you think the Dodo isn't around anymore because it just wasn't trying hard enough?

2. I announced the imminent commencement of a business that would see delivering Internet connectivity with parameters that everyone has been only dreaming about - and for years comparing the pricing of our broadband to the worldwide levels of pricing

Perhaps its only a reality in dreams... Its all well and good in theory, but the practical limitations are just too great.

4. I, being the friendly person I am handed my hand out by inviting everyone to join me on the premise to see anyone who wants’ to be involved with this (Wi-Fi Mesh) to gain more than he has been gaining on his own - I even offered a nice incentive...

I'd have to disagree on this one. You should have known (from your extensive research), that we do not take lightly to people abusing the term "community".

5. Had to endure reading communistic/socialistic gibberish coming from someone who's obviously enjoying a nice spoilt life at a first world country university, clearly not having a clue that there is such a plague spreading around us called digital divide and that there are potentially millions of young people that have been left out without any chance to afford computers, enjoy computer communications as well as get access to the world of knowledge on the Internet. And I for a change Intend to help bridging that divide - with the help of the spoilt boys or without.

This is a South African forum.. right? thats what the .za stands for?
Am I in the wrong place?

6. Have read many opinions that (if we don't do it the way everyone has been doing it, then) we don't know what we are doing

Opinions dont count. Experience counts. Take if from the people that have posted here, because they're the ones with the experience.
There is more collective Wifi experience in this thread, than in all the WISPs of South Africa combined.


Sadly, through the quality of some of your replies, you clearly haven't researched this matter properly.

But I wish you luck.
Just remember that you're talking to people here who know what they're doing, and they've been doing it for long enough to know the practical limitations of the technology.

You'd be better off asking them for advice, than attacking them for not offering it freely.

 

[daffy]

I'm sorry.. I cant let ignorance like this go uncorrected.
I almost spilt my coffee all over my keyboard reading this.

There is only one backbone, in the US of A. And yes, AFAIK, no one else provides direct Internet connectivity in SA - we are going to be the first. Don’t you just want to join our "thingie" so you can benefit from it?

I... simply have no words.
Did you get a bulk load of chappie wrappers?

What on earth do you mean by "Direct Internet Connectivity"?
There is no such thing. The Internet is a distributed entity. If you're on the Internet, you're on the Internet, end of story.
There is no "centre", or "one backbone" anymore. The whole Idea of the Internet (and infact, ARPANET), was one of building a network with no single point of failure.

How about you go out and do some real research on how peering works, and how the Internet is built?
I would try to explain it, but it might require words longer than 2 syllables.

But I will provide you with a few links to help you on your way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_carrier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_2_network
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_3_ISP

Its complicated. Its political.

I replied to your answer in my previous reply - but to state that again, yes, we are not going to provide any service unless we have secured all the required licences, permissions and like. "Registering" with "authority" to do so is going to be tricky, though - there is no such one in SA, I am afraid

Who is this ICASA bunch that we keep hearing/talking about then?
If you've acquired "licenses" to run a telecommunications network, please do share how you managed to get these.
And just because you're running in Unlicensed spectrum, doesn't mean you dont need a license to provide a service over it.

I'm licensed to own a firearm, but it doesn't make it legal for me to go around shooting people.

Also, where is this sentimental attachment to the "ISM" comes from? We never had such spectrum designation in South Africa - you must have been reading to many US regulatory papers. LOL.

Here.. I'll help you find it.
http://www.icasa.org.za/Manager/Cli...th_African_Table_of_Frequency_Allocations.pdf
Do a Search for ISM.

Incase you needed a definition for ISM...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISM_band

Just so you can relax even further - we will only use 1 or 2 of the 12 available channels in the 2.4 GHz spectrum. Also, we don't have a mechanism to monopolise these channels, so we made a provision for a mechanism that will assign the least used channel for our needs, instead of stepping onto someone else.

Overlapping channels.
Channel spacing is 5 Mhz, But each channel is actually 22Mhz wide. So you do a little maths, and you realises that there are only 3 non-overlapping channels available.

Need I continue?

 

[fragtion]

Erm,

Wi-Fi = Wireless Internet Network.
WLAN = Wireless LAN.

Without having read a single word of a thread and just relating to the title, I'm assuming this threat intends to make a public Wireless Comunity Mesh.
If this is indeed the case, then you'd rather call it a WLAN or afaik even better would be WAN?

And what would the point be in forming an entirely new network when you could just join JAWUG? Do some research before performing work and wasting the time and energy of yourself and others.

 

[Syndyre]

Erm,

Wi-Fi = Wireless Internet Network.
WLAN = Wireless LAN.

Without having read a single word of a thread and just relating to the title, I'm assuming this threat intends to make a public Wireless Comunity Mesh.
If this is indeed the case, then you'd rather call it a WLAN or afaik even better would be WAN?

And what would the point be in forming an entirely new network when you could just join JAWUG? Do some research before performing work and wasting the time and energy of yourself and others.

The point is its not a true community mesh, it seems to have a commercial aim.

 

[fragtion]

The point is its not a true community mesh, it seems to have a commercial aim.

Which would obviously explain why he's decided to start fresh, isolated from jawug...?

This thread should be locked/deleted asap, since it violates the myadsl terms of use, being simultaneously illegal.

 

[Syndyre]

Which would obviously explain why he's decided to start fresh, isolated from jawug...?

I think so, haven't read the whole thread in detail but thats the impression I get, you have to pay "membership fees" etc.

 

[savagedavid]

This thread should be locked/deleted asap, since it violates the myadsl terms of use, being simultaneously illegal.

Please don't - it's been so entertaining so far...

 

[ath0]

5. Had to endure reading communistic/socialistic gibberish coming from someone who's obviously enjoying a nice spoilt life at a first world country university, clearly not having a clue that there is such a plague spreading around us called digital divide and that there are potentially millions of young people that have been left out without any chance to afford computers, enjoy computer communications as well as get access to the world of knowledge on the Internet. And I for a change Intend to help bridging that divide - with the help of the spoilt boys or without.

1. Can you please tell me how much $$$ you trying to make with this business of yours?

2. Why arent you deploying in previously disadvantaged communities first?

3. Your AP's are selling for R2000, You must be buying them for R1999?

 

[Ryder_JHB]

Iliyan,

I am a techie at heart, and have a couple of questions related to the equipment etc if I may...

Can you explain what type (model, manufacturer etc) of AP's you would be looking at using (For R2000 according to your site)? How are you planning on tackling the routing between these ad-hoc nodes? If an external antenna is required for a member to connect, what type of antenna would you be utilising?

What exactly is contained within this Multi-Media library you keep referring to? Your site states latest blockbuster titles? How have you managed to obtain permission to re-broadcast these titles? How are you able to charge "members" a fee to access these titles?

How are your Wifi Communities going to be linked together, equipment wise? What are you planning on using to achieve this? Do you have access to proper highsites, or will you just be using the tallest building in each community? (If so, how are you going to obtain permission to use these buildings?)

Lastly, Please enlighten me as to how you are planning on linking each wifi community to this "Internet Backbone" that you speak of? And what kind of speeds, latency etc are we talking about?

Most of the thread so far has been, shall we say, rather heated - and I understand where my fellow "Brothers" are coming from, but I would just love for you to explain the Technical side to us!

Ryder

 

[Iliyan]

That looks like a pretty constructive crit to me, Iliyan. And by the way, using my extreamly limited knowledge of wireless theory, 95db loss would be about 600m, and thats just free space loss, not even factoring in things such as rain, trees, noise, etc, which normally ruin wifi's day.

Finally, someone who talks sense...

The neg 95 db losses for a 2.4 GHz signal propagated trough mixed obstacles (foliage, buildings, walls - brick, glass) is 75-125m.

This is exactly what we have provided for. It is plenty for our purpose.

A message to the not so bright, who will stare at the above figure with amazement: We are building Wi-Fi mesh, not you garden variety, illegal, Wi-Fi star topology networks like the ones WUGs and myriad of WISPs have deployed. But you knew that already, did not you?

 

[daffy]

Finally, someone who talks sense...

The neg 95 db losses for a 2.4 GHz signal propagated trough mixed obstacles (foliage, buildings, walls - brick, glass) is 75-125m.

This is exactly what we have provided for. It is plenty for our purpose.

A message to the not so bright, who will stare at the above figure with amazement: We are building Wi-Fi mesh, not you garden variety, illegal, Wi-Fi star topology networks like the ones WUGs and myriad of WISPs have deployed. But you knew that already, did not you?

Just remember. There's a big difference between signal attenuation, and noise. And you'll be creating a whole lot of noise with yourself with the kind of AP spacing you're talking about.

 

[Xarion]

look guys i dont know why we are bothering to give out our advice, all we are doing its helping him with stuff we've spent so many hours perfecting, we'll let wifi mesh do their commercial thing and we do ours there is no point in arguing ourselves blue in the face

 

[Ryder_JHB]

aaaww, but I wanna have my questions answered first! I am quite looking forward to the answers!

 

[RichardP]

We are building Wi-Fi mesh, not you garden variety, illegal, Wi-Fi star topology networks like the ones WUGs and myriad of WISPs have deployed. But you knew that already, did not you?

You OBVIOUSLY know ABSOLUTELY ZERO about how the Wugs are laid out

The Mesh netowork was used in the early days of the wugs, they worked fine except for when the 2.4Ghz noise floor shot up 'cos everyone and their pet now has Wifi in their house. The problem (that you know of already) is that Ad-Hoc Mesh is a self healing routing system, BUT it CANNOT route around a bad RF radio channel or a noisy environment.. The whole network degrades. In mesh modes, all systems work on the SAME channel and there is a radio contention... That, in plain english means "If 2 nodes are streaming, all the other nodes that can 'hear' the signal are brough in to the contention pattern and suffer perfomance losses"

You are not the first one to try this 10 year old revolutionary idea, and spend too much time reading wikipedia for buisness ideas.

This is EXPERIENCE talking. It has cost me plenty.