Another day, another cable

Gatecrasher

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But apart from a possible lack of trust in the basic economic principles on which most vibrant economies are built, there may be a more sinister motive behind all of this.

According to the Department of Communications’ latest annual report, their 38% share in Telkom contributed a healthy R 1.8 Billion to the their coffers. The DoC explained that the big jump in profits - the R1.8 billion was a massive increase over the previous year’s R 228.8 Million - was mainly due to once-off special dividends from special transactions and activities.

There is nothing like a monopoly to ensure high profits and high dividends, and like most Telkom shareholders, Government and the Department of Communications will not be overly concerned if Telkom’s easy ride continues for another year or two.

Sinister Motive? Really? This is no motive at all. The 38% stake in Telkom belongs to the South African people. It is yours and mine. It not the DoC's stake. It is our stake.

R1.8bln barely registers compared to the Treasury's total revenues of +-R450bln. Sorry, but this is a really pathetic way to end your story. You really need to start getting in touch with reality.

Telkom's easy ride will continue until new cables come on line and/or new sources of wholesale bandwdith are widely available. If there were no infrastructure plans afoot I'm sure government would be accused here of doing nothing. Whereas now they are being accused here of doing something.

Bring those cables on, I say! I just want cheap bandwdith and I don't care who provides it.
 

rpm

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Telkom's easy ride will continue until new cables come on line and/or new sources of wholesale bandwdith are widely available. If there were no infrastructure plans afoot I'm sure government would be accused here of doing nothing. Whereas now they are being accused here of doing something. Bring those cables on, I say! I just want cheap bandwdith and I don't care who provides it.
Hi Gatecrasher

This is actually the point I am making in the article: Why do they not allow all other cables from continuing within placing hurdles in their way, bringing much needed competition. Instead they warn other cable systems that they will not be able to land if this or that, and propose an elaborate $ 2-Billion super cable hoping the others will just join them (and be controlled?).

There is EASSy (not even mentioned by Nepad), SEACOM, InfraCo…why not just welcome these and go along with their plan if needed?
 

rpm

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Sinister Motive? Really? This is no motive at all. The 38% stake in Telkom belongs to the South African people. It is yours and mine. It not the DoC's stake. It is our stake.R1.8bln barely registers compared to the Treasury's total revenues of +-R450bln. Sorry, but this is a really pathetic way to end your story. You really need to start getting in touch with reality
Hi again Gatecrasher

This is the argument that Lyndall Shope-Mafole gave on Carte Blanche. I disagree strongly that this is ‘my’ stake (on behalf of the people). I did not benefit at all from this stake, and if it was beneficial to South Africans why is it such a controversial issue? Why is the DoC continually asked from various organizations to let go of this stake? Are they all delusional?

Would you also say that Telkom’s monopoly benefited South Africa (or at least would have) as argued by the DoC, or that managed liberalization is the way to go?

A competitive environment is surely the way to go, and Government’s share in Telkom has in the past, and will most likely in the future, prohibited this from happening.
 

lenosb

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I would like to raise again the issue of the shareholding in Telkom, specifically the mysterious buyers of the Thintana stake and their ties to the ANC.
It is and remains my contention that the Telkom monopoly is allowed to persist - nay, forced to persist - is not primarily because of the financial benefit to the DoC/Government, but because of the shareholder benefits flowing directly into the coffers of the ANC through their holdings via various fronts.
Whenever the gov makes noises/tables plans (such as the new cable)/bleats about Telkom's excessive pricing/profits - then you must see this is pure grandstanding; as paying lip-service to the needs of the population and the economy. They (the ANC) have NO intention of curtailing the Telkomonopoly unless forced to.
Come on - they have had AMPLE opportunities to address it: empowering ICASA to enforce price cuts; LLU; allowing more competition; etc etc. That is why rpm rightly points out the real topics that never get discussed - the gov will say whatever they have to to silence the critics for a few more days or weeks - but they will DO nothing.
The ANC (not the gov) is effectively taxing the population (and, since telecomms (internet!) is essentially a service enjoyed primarily by the haves, specifically of Previously Advantaged Individuals) to line their own pockets ...
This ugly little secret needs to be aired and discussed and used to shame the gov, but the only way is by determining WHO the real Telkom shareholders are. Start your investigation by asking who the buyers were of the Thintana 40% stake...

Makes my whiskers itch.

--spacemuis

What a fantastically succinct comment, a theory which I believe should be not be forgotten ….spacemuis you hit the nail on the head! Even though some may feel that it is just conjecture, it sounds completely plausible….
 

-toady-

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What a fantastically succinct comment, a theory which I believe should be not be forgotten ….spacemuis you hit the nail on the head! Even though some may feel that it is just conjecture, it sounds completely plausible….

Conjecture se voet.... but the silence will remain deafening...;)
 

Gatecrasher

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rpm said:
This is actually the point I am making in the article: Why do they not allow all other cables from continuing within placing hurdles in their way, bringing much needed competition. Instead they warn other cable systems that they will not be able to land if this or that, and propose an elaborate $ 2-Billion super cable hoping the others will just join them (and be controlled?).

There is EASSy (not even mentioned by Nepad), SEACOM, InfraCo…why not just welcome these and go along with their plan if needed?

Well, our minister is first and foremost a politician. Have you ever heard a politician simply say "Yes"? Of course, she is going to put as many conditions on it as she can, not for your benefit maybe or my benefit, but for the political objectives that she and her electorate holds dear. It's a balancing act... She hasn't said "No" either.

I disagree strongly that this is ‘my’ stake (on behalf of the people). I did not benefit at all from this stake, and if it was beneficial to South Africans why is it such a controversial issue? Why is the DoC continually asked from various organizations to let go of this stake? Are they all delusional?

If you are a taxpayer, you certainly have and continue to benefit financially from the Telkom stake. Taxes are marginally lower directly because of Telkom dividends and the initial sale proceeds that were used to reduce the national debt. There can be no question that you benefit.

The rub is that as a Telkom client (directly or indirectly), you have suffered far more from Telkom's monopolistic practices than you have benefited as a taxpayer.

But if 100% of Telkom had been sold off originally, do you really think we would be better shape now? I don't think so at all. A monopoly is state hands is bad enough. A monopoly in private hands is complete and utter disaster (which is pretty much what we've endured.)

Would you also say that Telkom’s monopoly benefited South Africa (or at least would have) as argued by the DoC, or that managed liberalization is the way to go?

I believe Telkom should not have been sold off at all. Not even 1% of it. Not until the market had been fully and speedily liberalized first. We should have had an SNO and a TNO long before Telkom was privatised. But think back, who was it that was clamouring for Telkom to be privatized so prematurely? The unions? No. The ANC? No. The DA? Yes. Big Business? Yes. The "white" media? Yes. Every delay was hailed as a national embarrassment in the press. We need the foreign investment! Face it, we needed the foreign investment like a hole in the head. But on the upside I know many an investment banker who made a huge killing from the Telkom "deal"...

A competitive environment is surely the way to go, and Government’s share in Telkom has in the past, and will most likely in the future, prohibited this from happening.

A competitive environment is where we are heading, but all too slowly. It is not the objective of private enterprise to bring cheap, affordable broadband to the masses. It is private enterprises objective to make a buck. And that's how it should be.

But governments do have an important role to play in providing infrastructure for broader social and political goals. ie Gautrain. ie WC2010 stadiums, Channel Tunnel, Roads, NASA etc, etc. Where the strategic importance of the projects far outweigh the mere commercial considerations, government pay a pivotal role.

A competitive environment is surely the way to go, and Government’s share in Telkom has in the past, and will most likely in the future, prohibited this from happening.

Certainly, one cannot dispute the fact that the guarantees given to Telkom shareholders (monopoly status, delayed SNO, SAT-3 exclusivity, etc) as part of the original privatisation agreement were onerous, short-sighted, and fully responsible for having put SA into the Telecommunications dark ages.

But current policy objectives and initialtives, the ECA, LLU, Sat-3 declarations, Nepad, Neotel, Infraco, Sentech wireless, etc, etc, are in no way supportive of the Telkom stake, in fact they are the very opposite.

Its not that I agree with all these initiatives, nor do I think that Ivy is a particularly good minister. She really isn't. What I find tiresome, almost as tiresome as the long wait for cheap broadband in SA, are the endless conspiracy and corruption theories. And the intimation that everything done by ICASA, Ivy and the DoC is solely to line their own and their cronies' pockets.

Unless you have evidence of it, why even go down that road? There are so many other roads, rhymes and reasons to explain the current ITC landscape. It does this website no credit to pedal in silly speculation. All it does is damage your credibility.

We want fast, cheap, affordable broadband.

Big business, the cellular operators, ISP's are not our friends in this. Telkom is not our friend. Neotel is not our friend. Cheap prices and affordability are not their objectives. Maximizing profits is what drives them. Business is never revolutionary, and they are a powerful lobby against change, unless it is change that will up their bottom line.

Yes, ultimately in an open market one would hope that competition would drive prices lower. But has it done so in SA's banking industry? Or in SA's motor vehicle industry? We are still paying way above international norms for many, many consumer goods and services, despite the supposed competition.

You may scoff all you like, but old Alec, Thabo, her Ivyness, the DoC, sleepy ICASA, TAG, and the more consumer oriented members of the press are the only friends that we (MyADSL) have in our desire for an SA bathed in cheap, affordable bandwidth.

And that, whether we like it or not, is just the way it is.
 
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Gatecrasher

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What a fantastically succinct comment, a theory which I believe should be not be forgotten ….spacemuis you hit the nail on the head! Even though some may feel that it is just conjecture, it sounds completely plausible….

Yes, why bother your head with complex facts, when there is an easy and appealing fiction to cling to.
 

Vrotappel

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Its not that I agree with all these initiatives, nor do I think that Ivy is a particularly good minister. She really isn't. What I find tiresome, almost as tiresome as the long wait for cheap broadband in SA, are the endless conspiracy and corruption theories. And the intimation that everything done by ICASA, Ivy and the DoC is solely to line their own and their cronies' pockets.

You may scoff all you like, but old Alec, Thabo, her Ivyness, the DoC, sleepy ICASA, TAG, and the more consumer oriented members of the press are the only friends that we (MyADSL) have in our desire for an SA bathed in cheap, affordable bandwidth.

And that, whether we like it or not, is just the way it is.

Funny though that they don't use our 38% share in Telkom to change it from within...

Secondly if it is 'our' shares why the hell can't we see the share register or the shareholder's agreement?

Sorry your version of the 'truth' does not cut it.
 

ic

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GC, I get the distinct impression that you have not been keeping up to date with Poison Ivy's [mis]Managed [telecoms] Liberalisation policy, and the damage that Poison Ivy and her policy have wreaked on SA. Perhaps in time you will realise that Poison Ivy does not serve the electorate, nor does her puppeteer, Mbeki.

This actually reminds me of the colourful debates in the iBurst forum - it's like history repeating with Poison Ivy substituted in iBurst's place.
 
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Gatecrasher

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This actually reminds me of the colourful debates in the iBurst forum

Iburst, my Iburst, how I loved you when you worked.

Yeah, but honestly, ask yourself: Isn't this debate more interesting than having to wade through intellectual brilliancies such as:

Oh Ivy, oh Ivy, please die! You ****ing piece of ****!

My late Dad taught me to look at issues from every side. So when everyone is swinging one way I will always try to swing the other (even when there is very little to swing on). I just don't see the point of rolling out these stories and everyone agreeing with each other and patting each other on the back in such a boring and predictable manner.

Our "esteemed" minister has been vilified and demonized on this forum to the degree where people actually want her dead. That's not rational.

She announces LLU and the end of Telkom's SAT3 exclusivity and the press pronounce "Minister grants Telkom 4 more years". That's not rational.

Let's face it, she cannot do any good, because everyone is convinced she can only do bad, that she is "on the take", that she invented the 3Gb cap, that she is out to get them personally, and that she eats young white children for breakfast... followed by donuts.

Just as everyone believes Manto staggers drunkenly around our hospitals at night murdering newborn babies and injecting people with HIV. And that she secretly owns a beetroot farm.

For once I would like to read an accurate news article that actually gets to grips with the minister and her vision for telecoms in SA. Because she has far more influence on what is actually going to happen than any of the braindead forumites that diss her and the sniping reporters who slap worn-out sensationalist spin on every news story that concerns her. (not to mention picking the most unflattering photos possible to colour their stories. An f-bomb indeed!)

I can't stop people believing what they want to believe, but I would just like to see some balance here. Okay.

Now if we can just turn our attention to the real villains, Telkom, the only party that can actually do something right now to relieve our plight, I will lead the charge!
 

Gatecrasher

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Funny though that they don't use our 38% share in Telkom to change it from within...

Like getting the CEO booted out. Like applying price restraints. Like appointing tech-savvy members to the board. Yeah, why don't they?

Of course, if the DoC did more than that, overtly, like crashing Telkom's profits, we would have government interfering in a listed public company. Shock. Horror. Bang goes SA's investment grade ratings. Mass exodus of foreign investors. Loss of confidence in our financial markets...

Secondly if it is 'our' shares why the hell can't we see the share register or the shareholder's agreement?

You can. At Compushare. As for the shareholder's agreement: Good question.

Sorry your version of the 'truth' does not cut it.

No? But thanks for reading it, anyway.
 

Juice

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Nicely done, Gatecrasher. Not quite sure I agree with everything you said,, but I can certainly admire the way you said it.
 

ic

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@GC, good luck with that - being the devil's advocate that is, unfortunately you're joining this debate a bit late as it has already been concluded that the real problem starts with guavamentals like Poison Ivy that allow Telkodemonopolies to get away with everything it does.

As for the LLU praises you lumped onto Poison Ivy, substantial amounts of the LLU Committee's report was plagiarized verbatim from Ofcom's LLU report.
 

DJKookie

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...

Our "esteemed" minister has been vilified and demonized on this forum to the degree where people actually want her dead. That's not rational.

She announces LLU and the end of Telkom's SAT3 exclusivity and the press pronounce "Minister grants Telkom 4 more years". That's not rational.

Let's face it, she cannot do any good, because everyone is convinced she can only do bad, that she is "on the take", that she invented the 3Gb cap, that she is out to get them personally, and that she eats young white children for breakfast... followed by donuts.

Just as everyone believes Manto staggers drunkenly around our hospitals at night murdering newborn babies and injecting people with HIV. And that she secretly owns a beetroot farm.

...!

You almost brought a tear to my eye there GC.

Unfortuanately every time I try to evaluate the mentioned ministers' track records all I get is this :
Ivy & Manto = Responsible, (Mildly) competent ministers who look out for the public's best interest = Fatal Error :eek:

Then my cap runs out, my medical aid demands half my salary and my computer crashes. :p
 
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rpm

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Like getting the CEO booted out. Like applying price restraints. Like appointing tech-savvy members to the board. Yeah, why don't they?
Hi Gatecrasher

Thanks for the feedback.

The reasons behind booting out Molotsane is still uncertain, but the most likely reason is that he signed an agreement with Alcatel – which would help move EASSy along – while the DoC did not want that to happen (yet). It may therefore actually be a sad thing that happened rather than good.

But back to the article: With all that has happened and continue to happen - continued high telecoms prices, very slow liberalization, putting hurdles in place of landing undersea cables here, hitting EASSy particularly hard, not giving ICASA adequate funding, working with SBC for the previous telecoms acts allowing them ‘above the law’ rights and much more – we must try to explain all of it.

If Ivy, the DoC and everyone else in Gov was purely concerned about the best for the people, it does not make sense that all of these things happen. This is not only what I say or many of the forumites, but international experts from the ITU and OECD. Basically every expert agrees on what should be done (even the DoC at the two colloquiums), but it just never happens and sometimes even the opposite happens.

What explanations are there? This is what I argued in the article… Maybe there are better explanations…but then please give them.

Regards,

RPM
 
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DJKookie

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On a more serious note …

Hi Gatecrasher

...
If Ivy, the DoC and everyone else in Gov was purely concerned about the best for the people, it does not make sense that all of these things happen. This is not only what I say or many of the forumites, but international experts from the ITU and OECD. Basically every expert agrees on what should be done (even the DoC at the two colloquiums), but it just never happens and sometimes even the opposite happens.

...

I believe that this is due to the fact that a lot of ministers (and especially Ivy) do not have the necessary background to administer the sectors that they are in. This usually leads to an over reliance on others that are knowledgeable. It seems that our comms minister’s choices as to who she listens to has not always been that good.

I feel that ministers, because of their constant exposure to the public, do not have the luxury of appearing incompetent or even dismissive in the eyes of voters (never mind which party they belong to).

So it’s quite possible that Ivy does have the best interest of the public at heart. It might just be that, so far, she has not made the best possible choices because the best possible information has not reached her ears / desk.
 

Vrotappel

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You may scoff all you like, but old Alec, Thabo, her Ivyness, the DoC, sleepy ICASA, TAG, and the more consumer oriented members of the press are the only friends that we (MyADSL) have in our desire for an SA bathed in cheap, affordable bandwidth.

Do you still feel the same way after reading this:


That is Lyndall Shope-Mafole DG of the DoC who has made every possible attempt to block competition in the SA market. Now we know why.
 
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