Apartheid police brutality returns

[semiautomatix]

Cops linked to suspect's death still on job

No action has yet been taken against the police officers who allegedly severely tortured two Soweto men, killing one of them.

This is despite post-mortem results showing that Mduduzi Gumede died of internal bleeding and spinal injuries "consistent with torture", according to the Independent Complaints Directorate.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20091224052711268C236609

Perhaps he slipped on some soap and fell out the window? I know that was a favourite of the SAPS at John Vorster Square during the 70s and 80s.

I've always tried to support the SAPS as they have a very difficult job, but these guys are causing the public to mistrust the police.

It appears we have come full circle. The SAPS are no better than their Apartheid counterparts.

 

[Gomario]

How interesting . . . However, why exactly did they have housebraking implements in their vehicle and fals number plates? Further, I would like to hear the story of witneses and not only the victims.

 

[Sackboy]

How interesting . . . However, why exactly did they have housebraking implements in their vehicle and fals number plates? Further, I would like to hear the story of witneses and not only the victims.

I think you're missing the point just a little bit.

 

[semiautomatix]

I think you're missing the point just a little bit.

Agreed, no one is saying they were illegally arrested, it sounds like they definitely were suspicious. However, you cannot play judge, jury and executioner.

 

[Kosmik]

At the moment it is alleged. Until they have sufficent grounds to suspend, they are following the correct procedures.

 

[Morgoth]

Agreed, no one is saying they were illegally arrested, it sounds like they definitely were suspicious. However, you cannot play judge, jury and executioner.

unfortunately this is a moment of combat thing, where adrenaline and emotions run very high, I fully support the police in this case, even if they are found to be guilty....
90% of the people pointing the finger have most probably never seen combat or have very little knowledge about it, else they will not make these ridiculous comments.

A criminal will not think twice if he decision was the other way around, the victim should not have been in that spot, lets be honest, we all know he is guilty. Criminals in this country have to many rights.

full amnesty should be given according to me.

 

[semiautomatix]

unfortunately this is a moment of combat thing, where adrenaline and emotions run very high, I fully support the police in this case, even if they are found to be guilty....
90% of the people pointing the finger have most probably never seen combat or have very little knowledge about it, else they will not make these ridiculous comments.

A criminal will not think twice if he decision was the other way around, the victim should not have been in that spot, lets be honest, we all know he is guilty. Criminals in this country have to many rights.

full amnesty should be given according to me.

Ah, you sound like my favourite former State President Mr BJ Vorster when you talk like that. Good to know that as much as things change they stay the same, eh?

Of course these guys were unarmed and detained in cells, so I fail to see how this becomes a combat situation? It's torture, plain and simple. Only a coward would stoop to the level of beating an unarmed prisoner.

 

[Ekhaatvensters]

unfortunately this is a moment of combat thing, where adrenaline and emotions run very high, I fully support the police in this case, even if they are found to be guilty....
90% of the people pointing the finger have most probably never seen combat or have very little knowledge about it, else they will not make these ridiculous comments.

A criminal will not think twice if he decision was the other way around, the victim should not have been in that spot, lets be honest, we all know he is guilty. Criminals in this country have to many rights.

full amnesty should be given according to me.

They were taken to the police station alive, it's not a moment of combat thing after that. The allegations are that they were beaten further at the police station which led to their deaths..

I'd agree with you if it happened during the arrest.

 

[Ronjay]

unfortunately this is a moment of combat thing, where adrenaline and emotions run very high, I fully support the police in this case, even if they are found to be guilty....
90% of the people pointing the finger have most probably never seen combat or have very little knowledge about it, else they will not make these ridiculous comments.

A criminal will not think twice if he decision was the other way around, the victim should not have been in that spot, lets be honest, we all know he is guilty. Criminals in this country have to many rights.

full amnesty should be given according to me.

No, murder is murder. If these police men did kill this man by torture it has nothing to do with "combat". I can understand if a suspect is shot dead in a shoot out but that is not what happened here. This makes these cops no better then the criminals. Thier job is to arrest criminals not torture them. Further more, police are not soldiers and this country is not under marshal law. Killer cops are not wanted or needed in SA as this is only adding to our problems. If the public can't trust police it is going to be very difficult for cops to do thier jobs, these idiots have just crippled other cops in the fight against crime.

 

[Morgoth]

Ah, you sound like my favourite former State President Mr BJ Vorster when you talk like that. Good to know that as much as things change they stay the same, eh?

good to see you only raise your opinion only +/- 25 years later , I guess you were quite happy to keep the skum out of the streets back then as you are now though.

But funny enough its mainly the same police that are still cops that served during the apartheid era, I doubt their methods changed much, look at what happend after Human rights were introduced after the death of Biko - they split up in groups and murdered a lot more innocent people in Botswana and Rhodesia.

Of course these guys were unarmed and detained in cells, so I fail to see how this becomes a combat situation? It's torture, plain and simple. Only a coward would stoop to the level of beating an unarmed prisoner.

not really, its a mean of interrogation, maybe this guy threatened the police? I know of 1 case where a policeman shot a guy dead in mids of combat though when the criminal says he will come back to hunt his family. I would not take that risk, and I doubt you will.

The problem is that we gave criminals to many rights in this country and the price we pay is by making our police victims, yes they are not all innocent I would love to see how this case plays out, it sounds to me as if we are still haven't heard the whole side of the story.

 

[Morgoth]

No, murder is murder. If these police men did kill this man by torture it has nothing to do with "combat". I can understand if a suspect is shot dead in a shoot out but that is not what happened here. This makes these cops no better then the criminals. Thier job is to arrest criminals not torture them. Further more, police are not soldiers and this country is not under marshal law. Killer cops are not wanted or needed in SA as this is only adding to our problems. If the public can't trust police it is going to be very difficult for cops to do thier jobs, these idiots have just crippled other cops in the fight against crime.

This guy was kicked after he was arested, in a police cell maybe (I doubt this is the truth though), It sounds to me as if he was kicked when he got arrested! hence I would still defend the policeman,

Rather have dead thugs then policeman in jail, this idiot who got killed should never have put himself in a position where he could be placed as a suspect.

Torture at this very moment is happening behind bars to interrogate suspect, I would rather have it controlled and in the open.

 

[chiskop]

good to see you only raise your opinion only +/- 25 years later , I guess you were quite happy to keep the skum out of the streets back then as you are now though.

Bugger off. How do you know what timgaul, or any one else thought 25 years ago? How do you know if he was even alive?

But funny enough its mainly the same police that are still cops that served during the apartheid era, I doubt their methods changed much, look at what happend after Human rights were introduced after the death of Biko - they split up in groups and murdered a lot more innocent people in Botswana and Rhodesia.

:wtf:

Human rights were introduced after Biko's death? Clearly not very well, if SAPS were still responsible for cross-border raids (and other atrocities inside SA).

The point is, that behaviour wasn't okay then, and it's not okay now.

 

[Morgoth]

Bugger off. How do you know what timgaul, or any one else thought 25 years ago? How do you know if he was even alive?



:wtf:

he is jumping in "lets bash apartheid again boat, stupid sensationalism imho."

Human rights were introduced after Biko's death? Clearly not very well, if SAPS were still respobsible for cross-border raids (and other atrocities inside SA).

The point is, that behaviour wasn't okay then, and it's not okay now.

the process took a long while to implement, but Biko's death was the turning point a lot of progress was made afterwards but yes it wasnt fully implemented. the cross-border raids and Biko's death where never supported by Bridgedear Broodryk for the police force back then ,he even said it was pure murder. but its a mere example of what happens after torture was made illegal, it took worse extremes, instead the government should allow it and control it very well. This case for example is one of many that still happen behind the scenes.

 

[Ronjay]

This guy was kicked after he was arested, in a police cell maybe (I doubt this is the truth though), It sounds to me as if he was kicked when he got arrested! hence I would still defend the policeman,

Rather have dead thugs then policeman in jail, this idiot who got killed should never have put himself in a position where he could be placed as a suspect.

The evidence gathered by forensics points to torture not being kicked while being arested. Caan't change facts to suite your self. Thier is proof that this man was tortured, no proof that he was harmed during the arrest. If a cop murders people he is a criminal and that is that. I have no problem with cops taking out bad guys in shoot outs, I have a big problem with cops torturing people in cells and killing them while in custody. So if I get arrested for something that gives cops the right to torture and kill me? This is not the middle ages, this is SA in 2009.

 

[chiskop]

he is jumping in "lets bash apartheid again boat, stupid sensationalism imho."

So from that you deduced that he supported Vorster?

The point, again, is that this behaviour was wrong then and is wrong now.

the process took a long while to implement, but Biko's death was the turning point a lot of progress was made afterwards but yes it wasnt fully implemented. the cross-border raids and Biko's death where never supported by Bridgedear Broodryk for the police force back then ,he even said it was pure murder. but its a mere example of what happens after torture was made illegal, it took worse extremes, instead the government should allow it and control it very well. This case for example is one of many that still happen behind the scenes.

Ah, so police torture and the deaths of people* in police captivity should be condoned, because otherwise it leads to cross-border raids and more cold-blooded murder?

_____________________________________________________
*Let's not forget that these people have not yet been found guilty of anything, as much as you'd like to make them criminals and execute them ASAP.

 

[Morgoth]

The evidence gathered by forensics points to torture not being kicked while being arested. Caan't change facts to suite your self. Thier is proof that this man was tortured, no proof that he was harmed during the arrest. If a cop murders people he is a criminal and that is that. I have no problem with cops taking out bad guys in shoot outs, I have a big problem with cops torturing people in cells and killing them while in custody. So if I get arrested for something that gives cops the right to torture and kill me? This is not the middle ages, this is SA in 2009.

It seems that middle-age tactics worked.
In any case if its true that he was tortured in a cell for interrogation and I would still say amnesty should be granted, if its not for interrogation and its obvious that this is murder.

but I still stand to my point where I say we should allow torture in cells to a degree (although it probably won't happen), this is not the first case where police use this type of behaviour to interrogate people. It still happens behind bars, I remember a few months ago Carte Blance and 3rd Degree ran an episode on it, some cases people were guilty in others police interrogate for the sake of torture (as the media portrayed it in any case).

If we don't control the torture police are allowed to do then more of these events will occur behind the scenes and out of the view of the public.

 

[Morgoth]

So from that you deduced that he supported Vorster?

The point, again, is that this behaviour was wrong then and is wrong now.

The behaviour is wrong, but using sensasionalism is just as wrong, the thread title might just as well have been 'Police still use torture, even thought its illegal' instead of trying to bash apartheid (like all the hypocrite haven't done that yet!)

Ah, so police torture and the deaths of people* in police captivity should be condoned, because otherwise it leads to cross-border raids and more cold-blooded murder?

exactly control torture and you control the consequences of not controling it as harsh as it might sound.

______________________________________________
*Let's not forget that these people have not yet been found guilty of anything, as much as you'd like to make them criminals and execute them ASAP.

yeah, like that trial would ever come forth

 

[Ronjay]

good to see you only raise your opinion only +/- 25 years later , I guess you were quite happy to keep the skum out of the streets back then as you are now though.

But funny enough its mainly the same police that are still cops that served during the apartheid era, I doubt their methods changed much, look at what happend after Human rights were introduced after the death of Biko - they split up in groups and murdered a lot more innocent people in Botswana and Rhodesia.



not really, its a mean of interrogation, maybe this guy threatened the police? I know of 1 case where a policeman shot a guy dead in mids of combat though when the criminal says he will come back to hunt his family. I would not take that risk, and I doubt you will.

The problem is that we gave criminals to many rights in this country and the price we pay is by making our police victims, yes they are not all innocent I would love to see how this case plays out, it sounds to me as if we are still haven't heard the whole side of the story.

Interogation is one thing, torture and murder is something else. Again, police are not soldiers. Thier job is to arrest suspects and interogate for evidence but I don't see torture and murder as a valid interogation tecnique. Please tell me how tortureing and killing suspects is in anyway justifiable and even legal.

 

[Morgoth]

Interogation is one thing, torture and murder is something else. Again, police are not soldiers. Thier job is to arrest suspects and interogate for evidence but I don't see torture and murder as a valid interogation tecnique. Please tell me how tortureing and killing suspects is in anyway justifiable and even legal.

not all torture leads to killing them, but yes if you torture information out of a criminal that you suspect is involced in lets say an armed robery case that would lead to murder then I would say it is justifiable.

Its a fine line to cross though. shocking someone or making him stand for 2-3 days, water dunking, or dropping him from 2 feet in the air on a helicopter probably wont kill him, if it can lead to saving lifes then by all means use it as a tool. If you don't then it will happen behind bars as the media portrayed this case.

if they were soldiers then I would ask them to shoot every bugger they find suspecting - clearly not their job.

 

[Ronjay]

It seems that middle-age tactics worked.
In any case if its true that he was tortured in a cell for interrogation and I would still say amnesty should be granted, if its not for interrogation and its obvious that this is murder.

but I still stand to my point where I say we should allow torture in cells to a degree (although it probably won't happen), this is not the first case where police use this type of behaviour to interrogate people. It still happens behind bars, I remember a few months ago Carte Blance and 3rd Degree ran an episode on it, some cases people were guilty in others police interrogate for the sake of torture (as the media portrayed it in any case).

If we don't control the torture police are allowed to do then more of these events will occur behind the scenes and out of the view of the public.

Thats just nuts. What if these guys where innocent. I would hope that nothing ever happens that I get wrongfully arrested and tortured to death by cops. You are confussing the war on crime with all out war.