Are EVs actually a socialist plot 😂

[porchrat]

which countries and which models are those?

pretty much every comparison I've seen require you to have a proper long "lifetime" before EV ownership gets cheaper, you also have to factor in the batteries are guaranteed to fail at some point and add the replacement costs to that calculation

I'm much less anti-EV than I use to be, but they most definitely still have a lot of catching up to do. Looks like their salvation is coming from China, pioneers like Tesla were never going to push the envelope and also mass produce to bring costs down. China said "hold my beer".

at least we can all rejoice in the fact that diesel has fallen out of favour, because fahk diesel!

In the UK if you're charging at home you're saving a bundle. Petrol is pricey. They charge you for driving through clean zones in the ICE cars etc.

The costs add up man.

We tend to look at EVs through our SA lenses. The prices are bloated way out of proportion, our fuel prices are different and our usage patterns are vastly different. We also don't have all the greeny fees developed countries have.

When you look at it as a city commuter in developed countries EVs are pretty darn competitive. They get more and more competitive as time goes on.

 

[xcaliber]

I will buy an ev once we have standardized batteries for replacement.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

In the UK if you're charging at home you're saving a bundle. Petrol is pricey. They charge you for driving through clean zones in the ICE cars etc.

The costs add up man.

We tend to look at EVs through our SA lenses. The prices are bloated way out of proportion, our fuel prices are different and our usage patterns are vastly different. We also don't have all the greeny fees developed countries have.

When you look at it as a city commuter in developed countries EVs are pretty darn competitive. They get more and more competitive as time goes on.

makes sense, but things like "greeny fees" give EVs a superficial, forced and unfair advantage

sure if you live in such a place it will factor into your decision making process, but it's not a true representation of how things were to stack up if all things were equal

 

[porchrat]

makes sense, but things like "greeny fees" give EVs a superficial, forced and unfair advantage

sure if you live in such a place it will factor into your decision making process, but it's not a true representation of how things were to stack up if all things were equal

Those places aren't SA. The greeny fees in those countries are there for a logical reason. For example to encourage folks to not absolutely fsck the air quality in certain areas (which I'm sure we all agree ICE cars actively do). They aren't random garbage like a sugar tax that just goes towards a new blue lambo for a politician.

Apples and oranges.

 

[Zellephant]

at least we can all rejoice in the fact that diesel has fallen out of favour, because fahk diesel!

Pure Blasphemy! Go wash out your mouth right away.

Diesel would have been the future if it wasn’t for the eco-nazis fabricated outrage at the dieselgate saga.

When those lunatics at VW squeezed a twin turbo v10 diesel into a glorified mommy wagon and sleeper saloon, giving them 750nm of torque back in 2002 already. Never mind those same lunatics putting a 1000nm version into the v12 Q7 (both of which had to be detuned because otherwise there was no production gearbox able to handle the torque), they knew what was up.

Never mind the wonderful V8 and used by Porsche, Land Rover, Audi et al. Merc and Volvos 5cylinder masterpieces. That bonkers twin turbo V6 Audi fitted to the SQ5 diesel. The list goes on and on and on.

EV fanboois love talking about torque, but boosted diesel is where it’s at if you really want bootloads of torque available at a moments notice all day long, while still able to cruise efficiently down the high way.

I had an SQ5 diesel for a few years, my business partner a Cayenne Diesel S. we did multiple trips down the N1 from JHB to Cape Town with both of those, getting low 8km/L average consumption often (while averaging 150+kph), but could blast past convoys of trucks with no stress at all.

Last year I had the very unpleasant experience of doing that trip in a Jag I-pace EV (which costs significantly more up front), and although the i-pace oils very impressive on paper, when you regularly ask it for the full torque compliment to overtake truck convoys safely, you very quickly run into range anxiety issues. Making the 250-300km segments between fast charging equipped filling stations was a close call at times, especially on sections with heavy truck traffic. This despite the cars claimed 450km range. With recharges taking about an hour per stop.

That makes it a minimum 2 day journey, with at least 4 hour long charging stops, and 1 overnight stop. It was horrible, any other car can do it easily in one push with only 1 fuel stop needed. While you get lunch etc.

I love Jags, and im actively shopping for a 3.0D F-pace now, but that EV, never ever again.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Those places aren't SA. The greeny fees in those countries are there for a logical reason. For example to encourage folks to not absolutely fsck the air quality in certain areas (which I'm sure we all agree ICE cars actively do). They aren't random garbage like a sugar tax that just goes towards a new blue lambo for a politician.

Apples and oranges.

I like my governments to stay the fahk out of my business, period

whether it's sugar tax or greeny fees it is all BS

besides, EU emission standards have been insane for a long time, you'd struggle to find a city anywhere in the EU where smog or air quality issues can be blamed on cars

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Diesel would have been the future if it wasn’t for the eco-nazis fabricated outrage at the dieselgate saga.

funny enough I don't even care if the eco-nazis lied or not, the uninspiring sound and often also the smell is enough to put me off diesel for life

the same nonsense lies have us filling up with unleaded petrol all these years too

I love Jags

even after their "rebranding" exercise?!?

 

[HAL 9000]

Pure Blasphemy! Go wash out your mouth right away.

Diesel would have been the future if it wasn’t for the eco-nazis fabricated outrage at the dieselgate saga.

When those lunatics at VW squeezed a twin turbo v10 diesel into a glorified mommy wagon and sleeper saloon, giving them 750nm of torque back in 2002 already. Never mind those same lunatics putting a 1000nm version into the v12 Q7 (both of which had to be detuned because otherwise there was no production gearbox able to handle the torque), they knew what was up.

Never mind the wonderful V8 and used by Porsche, Land Rover, Audi et al. Merc and Volvos 5cylinder masterpieces. That bonkers twin turbo V6 Audi fitted to the SQ5 diesel. The list goes on and on and on.

EV fanboois love talking about torque, but boosted diesel is where it’s at if you really want bootloads of torque available at a moments notice all day long, while still able to cruise efficiently down the high way.

I had an SQ5 diesel for a few years, my business partner a Cayenne Diesel S. we did multiple trips down the N1 from JHB to Cape Town with both of those, getting low 8km/L average consumption often (while averaging 150+kph), but could blast past convoys of trucks with no stress at all.

Last year I had the very unpleasant experience of doing that trip in a Jag I-pace EV (which costs significantly more up front), and although the i-pace oils very impressive on paper, when you regularly ask it for the full torque compliment to overtake truck convoys safely, you very quickly run into range anxiety issues. Making the 250-300km segments between fast charging equipped filling stations was a close call at times, especially on sections with heavy truck traffic. This despite the cars claimed 450km range. With recharges taking about an hour per stop.

That makes it a minimum 2 day journey, with at least 4 hour long charging stops, and 1 overnight stop. It was horrible, any other car can do it easily in one push with only 1 fuel stop needed. While you get lunch etc.

I love Jags, and im actively shopping for a 3.0D F-pace now, but that EV, never ever again.

 

[porchrat]

I like my governments to stay the fahk out of my business, period

whether it's sugar tax or greeny fees it is all BS

Agree to disagree.

besides, EU emission standards have been insane for a long time, you'd struggle to find a city anywhere in the EU where smog or air quality issues can be blamed on cars

Absolutely not true:

London’s ULEZ cut air pollution — high vehicle compliance left little room for post-expansion gains - University of Birmingham

ULEZ schemes important in reducing one aspect of air pollution but other sources must be addressed

www.birmingham.ac.uk

The ULEZ concept in London had a substantial impact on air pollution. Try again.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Absolutely not true:

London’s ULEZ cut air pollution — high vehicle compliance left little room for post-expansion gains - University of Birmingham

ULEZ schemes important in reducing one aspect of air pollution but other sources must be addressed

www.birmingham.ac.uk

London is not in the EU btw

 

[porchrat]

London is not in the EU btw

Doesn't have to be, point stands.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Doesn't have to be, point stands.

sure, though technically I did say you'd struggle to find a city anywhere "in the EU"

 

[Zellephant]

In the UK if you're charging at home you're saving a bundle. Petrol is pricey. They charge you for driving through clean zones in the ICE cars etc.

The whole “now I can drive in low emission zones tax free” is also a nonsense thing people tell themselves to rationalise EV purchases. Why would anyone want to drive into those zones anyway when you have lovely multi story car parks outside the city, and excellent rapid public transport to anywhere you need to be thats beyond walking or bike distance. 2 years back i spent 6 months in Belgium in a town that had massive taxes for driving into the town centre, and then even if you paid the tax, you still couldn’t drive in most places, coz they are either reserved for buses and trams only. So, hardly any cars in town, wonderful. Walk or bike everywhere you need to go. Hop in the car only for cross country/intercity trips.

The costs add up man.

We tend to look at EVs through our SA lenses. The prices are bloated way out of proportion, our fuel prices are different and our usage patterns are vastly different. We also don't have all the greeny fees developed countries have.

When you look at it as a city commuter in developed countries EVs are pretty darn competitive. They get more and more competitive as time goes on.

City commuters im developed countries dont need cars in the city, anyone who wants to drive a car in a developed city needs their head read. I live in Stellenbosch and my car doesn’t go near the town centre, especially during the day. We walk, or ride bikes, or electric scooters etc. congestion taxes in Europeans cities werent supposed to accommodate EVs, tje point of them was to keep cars out of the city unless absolutely nescesarry - which is something I wish they will do in Stellenbosch.

 

[porchrat]

sure, though technically I did say you'd struggle to find a city anywhere "in the EU"

We were talking about the UK before, but OK.

Here's a study on Barcelona:

How cutting traffic by a quarter could save 200 lives in Barcelona

From superblocks to port electrification plans, Barcelona’s traffic pollution is slowly improving.

www.euronews.com

Cars are still producing a significant amount of air pollutants in cities. I'm sorry if that comes as a shock to you.

In many European cities it's less of a problem these days, but that's precisely because of measures like the ULEZ approach that have cut down on the number of vehicles in these cities.

 

[porchrat]

The whole “now I can drive in low emission zones tax free” is also a nonsense thing people tell themselves to rationalise EV purchases. Why would anyone want to drive into those zones anyway when you have lovely multi story car parks outside the city, and excellent rapid public transport to anywhere you need to be thats beyond walking or bike distance. 2 years back i spent 6 months in Belgium in a town that had massive taxes for driving into the town centre, and then even if you paid the tax, you still couldn’t drive in most places, coz they are either reserved for buses and trams only. So, hardly any cars in town, wonderful. Walk or bike everywhere you need to go. Hop in the car only for cross country/intercity trips.

City commuters im developed countries dont need cars in the city, anyone who wants to drive a car in a developed city needs their head read. I live in Stellenbosch and my car doesn’t go near the town centre, especially during the day. We walk, or ride bikes, or electric scooters etc. congestion taxes in Europeans cities werent supposed to accommodate EVs, tje point of them was to keep cars out of the city unless absolutely nescesarry - which is something I wish they will do in Stellenbosch.

If it's part of your use case you get to dodge that cost. I don't know what else to tell you mate. I shouldn't have to explicitly say this.

These zones are also a good thing. They've improved air quality all over the place. This is objectively a good thing for people.

We're not idiots. We're all adults here. We all know ICE cars produce emissions that fsck the air up around you and give you all sorts of diseases you otherwise wouldn't have to deal with. It's not news to anyone.

 

[Sinbad]

I am a petrol head.

I also am unlikely to ever get an ice car again. My ev experience has been superior to that of my past ice cars.

 

[Zellephant]

funny enough I don't even care if the eco-nazis lied or not, the uninspiring sound and often also the smell is enough to put me off diesel for life

A 2 litre 4 cylinder bakkie engine might sound uninspiring. But high performance diesels in either 5, 6, 8 or more cylinder configurations can rival a good petrol engine note any day. Where they lose out is the high revving scowl of a Euro v8 or so, but the beauty of Diesel is it doesn’t need to rev high to make silly power.

Here are a few choice examples:

https://youtu.be/U8Z_FseHSro?si=J-ksLfRcKwWWAwEV

the same nonsense lies have us filling up with unleaded petrol all these years too


even after their "rebranding" exercise?!?

No, they lost me there. I think they lost themselves too.

 

[Zellephant]

These zones are also a good thing. They've improved air quality all over the place. This is objectively a good thing for people.

We're not idiots. We're all adults here. We all know ICE cars produce emissions that fsck the air up around you and give you all sorts of diseases you otherwise wouldn't have to deal with. It's not news to anyone.

In super congested cities, maybe I will give you that, but most of us don’t live in the centre of super congested cities, and the damage exhaust emissions make is only an issue in those very localised conditions.

Outside of that very limited scenario when it comes to Western Europeans, and us, and most of the developing world etc etc etc, cars have over the past 100 odd years they have been mainstream done virtually no long term meaningful damage of the environment, and when it come to greenhouse gas emissions, EVs just offset the “damage” to other remote locations, but guaranteed over their entire product lifecycle, they will be much more damaging to the environment than ICE cars will ever be. Ignoring the toxic waste released and extremely sensitive environments destroyed by lithium and cobalt etc mining, the biggest environmental cost from ICE cars will come from their disposable nature, and need to be replaced at a far higher rate. This will become particularly evident once people begin using legislation to “force” a conversion to EV.

 

[Jet-Fighter7700]

I will buy an ev once we have standardized batteries for replacement.

this, EV's have plenty to like, besides the mad performance, even with the heavy batteries,
I mean you can play around with sensitivity of the controls, regen, and tons more,

and I'm sure when they make EV's much more modular and the infrastructure catches up
EV's will be plenty fun,

Im still of the opinion EV's are the perfect idea to make even more modular, separate the body and seats and interior from the actual mechanics, and then go nuts with the possibilities, as it will all be modular.

so for the 9-5 grind, a boring econobox 5 door hatchback, but over the weekend, a Bakkie body on the same "skateboard" frame that holds the wheels and batteries and motors.
moving house, a Van body, want to cruise in a 2 door convertible, an easy swap,

and all the possibilities that having everything modular brings, bigger motors, bigger batteries, smaller frame, bigger frame,

again, from what I can tell right now, they loading nonsense features into EV's as they fail to innovate,
an EV is hilariously simple, if you strip out the nonsense screens and subscription pay as you drive trash they force us to live with.

they just make too much money from it, for them to agree on a few simple standards,
and then let everybody make bodies, batteries, motors, interiors and whatever you like that plugs in to this backbone.

problem is just like Preston tucker, back in the 60's, they far too invested in making the regular car the way its always been made.

just like the lightbulb cartel, I bet you there is a cartel forcing this EV nonsense with a million screens and subscription trash
everything is a cartel these days, if anybody actually innovates they get either brought out, sued into oblivion, or much worse, copied by the Chinese blatantly and made cheaply and disastrously.

 

[Zellephant]

this, EV's have plenty to like, besides the mad performance, even with the heavy batteries,
I mean you can play around with sensitivity of the controls, regen, and tons more,

and I'm sure when they make EV's much more modular and the infrastructure catches up
EV's will be plenty fun,

Im still of the opinion EV's are the perfect idea to make even more modular, separate the body and seats and interior from the actual mechanics, and then go nuts with the possibilities, as it will all be modular.

so for the 9-5 grind, a boring econobox 5 door hatchback, but over the weekend, a Bakkie body on the same "skateboard" frame that holds the wheels and batteries and motors.
moving house, a Van body, want to cruise in a 2 door convertible, an easy swap,

and all the possibilities that having everything modular brings, bigger motors, bigger batteries, smaller frame, bigger frame,

again, from what I can tell right now, they loading nonsense features into EV's as they fail to innovate,
an EV is hilariously simple, if you strip out the nonsense screens and subscription pay as you drive trash they force us to live with.

they just make too much money from it, for them to agree on a few simple standards,
and then let everybody make bodies, batteries, motors, interiors and whatever you like that plugs in to this backbone.

problem is just like Preston tucker, back in the 60's, they far too invested in making the regular car the way its always been made.

just like the lightbulb cartel, I bet you there is a cartel forcing this EV nonsense with a million screens and subscription trash
everything is a cartel these days, if anybody actually innovates they get either brought out, sued into oblivion, or much worse, copied by the Chinese blatantly and made cheaply and disastrously.

You do realise this modular utopian future you dream of, will result in a completely compromised vehicle that would be terrible at all those things.

There’s a real reason why certain types of cars have particular wheelbases, weight balances, suspension balances, the size and type of wheels and tyres fitted etc. As practical as a modular skateboard base may be in some applications, at making a do it all car, they will be terrible.

Cars right now are as good as they have ever been as well in many way, because of decades of innovation and development. They are the way they are, because certain set ups work for certain applications.