Are EVs actually a socialist plot 😂

[konfab]

Those "shortcomings" are only shortcomings in some use cases though. Which is my point.

You're speaking as though your use case is the only legitimate one. It's not.

The problem is that EVs are good at less things than ICE cars whilst costing substantially more.

Which means that if you want to do the things that EV cars are not good at, you need an entirely separate care or you will go insane.

What you are missing out is that this impacts everyone who uses these cars, because people buy and sell cars in secondary markets.

Take my old Toyota Aygo. It was by all means a city car. Designed for the streets of Europe.
Not particularly fantastic for longer distances due to the smol engine. Yet it still did the job perfectly fine, and you can still take advantage of the very low fuel economy to save money.

When I sold it, I could appeal to two buyers. One who wanted it for city, and one who wanted a cheap car with low running costs. More buyers mean higher prices.

Even the opposite is true. If you have a big 4x4 like a Pajero, it can still function perfectly decently in a city (being able to run over vagrants , whilst being really nice on the highway.

EVS don't have this. They work well in cities and that is it. So *****shocker******, they depreciate like milk because you are missing out potential buyers for your second hand car.

A U.K.-based study found 3-year-old EVs lost more than half of their value compared with 39% for gas cars. Another study conducted by Boucar Diouf, an EV researcher and professor at Kyung Hee University in Seoul, found EVs in the U.S. can lose as much as 60% of their value over three to five years, compared with less than half for traditional vehicles.

https://restofworld.org/2025/ev-depreciation-blusmart-collapse/

This is another what you are not considering, the biggest cost with EVs is the depreciation.

 

[Sinbad]

My model Y is amazing on the highway. End of story.

 

[Zellephant]

This is another what you are not considering, the biggest cost with EVs is the depreciation.

Yep, add to that the need to replace more often, and it becomes its own cyclical debt spiral.

 

[Johnatan56]

When I go on holiday, I usually take a trailer.

Which is rare for most people.

Lithium battery tech just isn't suitable for what people use their cars for. Here is a smell for you why it is the case. With cellphones, did the government have to provide subsidies to get people to switch from a landline to a cellphone? Nope, people bought cellphones because they are superior. Both the US and EU had massive EV subsidies and they still didn't get much traction.

The subsidy is like max 8%, it isn't that high. It's because EV has a higher up front cost, government trying to get people to move because it notable reduces emissions which will end up cheaper for the country (EU has emissions targets).

Lowering emissions improves air quality, better for climate change.

Back then, no, because you could just get to a landline anywhere, and then phones got cheap enough that the average person could afford them, it's a whataboutism argument. You do know phones are subsidized in the US under the Lifeline program nowadays btw?

You need a couple of things for EVs to work:

I'll bite.

1) Electricity must basically be free.

No, it just needs to be cheaper than petrol.

2) You need a long distance rail network capable of hauling cars and passengers to make up for the shitty charging infrastructure

99% of the time you charge at home, but that rail network sounds great, almost like motorail trains exist in the rest of the world, and just PRASA can't sort itself out.

3) The price needs to be cheaper than an internal combustion engine vehicle to make up for the disadvantages.

Lifetime cost is cheaper.

Agreed, but cities are great when there are no vehicles in them at all, either EV or ICE. That is what the goal should be, virtually car free cities. Everywhere you go that has chosen to keep cars completely out of the city, is great.

There will always be cars, goal is to reduce it to those who need it (delivery vans for example), not eliminate entirely. You don't need to deal in either absolute or give up, red herring.

EVs will be replaced more often than ICE cars, will have very limited viability in the used market beyond say 10 years. Electronics are disposable items at the end of the day. Whether phones or cars.

Same electronic components as in ICE, and there are no signs that EV's will suddenly stop working at 10 years, actually have reason to believe they'll lats longer as again, less parts that can fail.

 

[Johnatan56]

https://restofworld.org/2025/ev-depreciation-blusmart-collapse/

This is another what you are not considering, the biggest cost with EVs is the depreciation.

You're picking Tesla Model Y depreciation where Musk cut the price of the new car and did a Nazi salute as an example.
Plus your article ends with:

Battery tech is also proving more resilient than expected. Research from Recurrent shows batteries deteriorate just 1%–2% annually, with only 1% of cars built after 2016 needing replacements versus 13% for older EVs. Most of the recent replacements are also covered by warranties.

“The data is helping people have confidence in used EV batteries,” Garberson said. “As confidence rises, so will resale prices.”

I've found that in the second hand market here, they keep like 90% of their price if it's post 2021 about, it's annoying.

 

[Zophos]

Subsidies are falling now while sales are rising though.

In the EU 2025 1 in 5 cars sold was an EV. That's a new record.

The share of electric vehicles in the market rose 4% last year. ICE dropped.

Where are you getting your info?

From his bottom, me thinks....

 

[porchrat]

The problem is that EVs are good at less things than ICE cars whilst costing substantially more.

Which is irrelevant if the things they're not as good at are irrelevant to your use case... how many times do I have to repeat this?

Which means that if you want to do the things that EV cars are not good at, you need an entirely separate care or you will go insane.

Unless you don't need to do those things, in which case you don't.

What you are missing out is that this impacts everyone who uses these cars, because people buy and sell cars in secondary markets.

Unless you also sell it to someone who uses it in the same manner your did, and so also finds the shortcomings irrelevant.

Take my old Toyota Aygo. It was by all means a city car. Designed for the streets of Europe.
Not particularly fantastic for longer distances due to the smol engine. Yet it still did the job perfectly fine, and you can still take advantage of the very low fuel economy to save money.

When I sold it, I could appeal to two buyers. One who wanted it for city, and one who wanted a cheap car with low running costs. More buyers mean higher prices.

Less and less buyers each year if the statistics are to be believed.

Even the opposite is true. If you have a big 4x4 like a Pajero, it can still function perfectly decently in a city (being able to run over vagrants , whilst being really nice on the highway.

Come on now. A 4x4 is not an ideal city car. It's not appealing to that person. Instead they're making do with a "shortcoming".

You can't say this is a negative about EVs then ignore it with ICE. It's bias.

 

[konfab]

You're picking Tesla Model Y depreciation where Musk cut the price of the new car and did a Nazi salute as an example.
Plus your article ends with:

I've found that in the second hand market here, they keep like 90% of their price if it's post 2021 about, it's annoying.

Nissan Leaf​

• Initial price: Around €35,000
• Value after 5 years: Estimated between €12,000 and €16,000
• Depreciation: Over 60%

Compared to other models, the Leaf tends to lose value more quickly, with a significant market price reduction already in the medium term.

Renault Zoe​

• Purchase price: About €30,000
• Estimated value after 5 years: Between €9,000 and €10,500
• Depreciation: Between 65% and 70%

Compared to other electric models, the Renault Zoe shows a steeper depreciation after 5 years, placing it among the highest in terms of value loss.

Fiat 500e​

• Price at the time of purchase: Around €30,000
• Residual value after 5 years: Between €14,000 and €17,000
• Depreciation: Between 43% and 53%

The Fiat 500e shows a good capacity to retain its value over time, positioning itself better than many other electric models.

​

• List price: About €40,000
• Expected value after 5 years: Between €18,000 and €22,000
  Depreciation: Between 45% and 55%

The BMW i3 offers moderate depreciation, establishing itself as a premium car that manages to maintain a good residual value over the long term.

https://www.daze.eu/en/blog/used-electric-car-after-5-years


But lets look at the US now

The Hyundai Kona Electric was a solid choice for an affordable EV in 2020, but it still depreciates by 58% over five years – not the best but still better than the average depreciation rate of all battery-powered models. When it was launched, the Korean electric SUV was ahead of its closest rivals in terms of outright performance and range. Even better, its relatively affordable pricing in relation to its standard tech and features, plus its class-leading 258-mile range, made the Kona Electric an attractive purchase. And apparently, it still retains its renown well after five years as among the EVs that hold the best resale value.

The Kia Niro EV competes squarely with the Hyundai Kona Electric, but it has a slightly worse depreciation rate of 59.2% and a higher loss of value compared to its MSRP in 2020. It’s a well-rounded, notably practical and efficient,

While we expect luxury nameplates at the top of this list, the humble Nissan Leaf goes against the grain as among the EVs that exhibited the most depreciation within half a decade, at a rate of 64.1%.

The Jaguar I-Pace took the biggest hit, losing a whopping 72.2% of its value over five years. This figure not only puts the luxury EV SUV at the top of the list of EVs with the worst depreciation in over five years, it’s

https://carbuzz.com/ev-depreciation-over-5-years-ranked/



So we have multiple non Tesla EVs all depreciating faster than than their equivalent ICE cars in two different markets.

BUT ELAWN MUSK

 

[konfab]

Come on now. A 4x4 is not an ideal city car. It's not appealing to that person. Instead they're making do with a "shortcoming".

I can take my FIL's Pajero to COCT right now and do a shopping errand without any real hassle. Sure, it is a bit big to park, but that is it. I don't need to really do much differently than I would if I went in a small city car.

The hassles of an EV for doing any sort of long range driving destroy any sort of practicality. Hence why they are not comparable. People had to invent a new EV specific mental illness for EVs.

 

[Sinbad]

I can take my FIL's Pajero to COCT right now and do a shopping errand without any real hassle. Sure, it is a bit big to park, but that is it. I don't need to really do much differently than I would if I went in a small city car.

The hassles of an EV for doing any sort of long range driving destroy any sort of practicality. Hence why they are not comparable. People had to invent a new EV specific mental illness for EVs.

What hassles please?

 

[Zellephant]

Which is rare for most people.

What? Since when it towing a trailer when going on holiday rare for most people? I means it’s not like tow bars are standard equipment on most family SUVs or anything, or like they sell luggage trailers with roof racks etc outside Makro for exactly this purpose.

Plus, Holidays normally require toys, like bikes/motorbikes/canoes/rubber ducks etc, on top of the whole families luggage etc.

Then there is obviously the myriad of caravan parks all over the place, which seem particularly popular over the holiday periods, both here, and in Europe.

So tell me again how it’s rare for people to tow a trailer when they go on holiday?

 

[Sinbad]

What? Since when it towing a trailer when going on holiday rare for most people? I means it’s not like tow bars are standard equipment on most family SUVs or anything, or like they sell luggage trailers with roof racks etc outside Makro for exactly this purpose.

Plus, Holidays normally require toys, like bikes/motorbikes/canoes/rubber ducks etc, on top of the whole families luggage etc.

Then there is obviously the myriad of caravan parks all over the place, which seem particularly popular over the holiday periods, both here, and in Europe.

So tell me again how it’s rare for people to tow a trailer when they go on holiday?

You're still talking edge cases here to be honest.

And, if that's your requirement, nothing stops you renting a SUV for 2 weeks.

 

[porchrat]

I can take my FIL's Pajero to COCT right now and do a shopping errand without any real hassle. Sure, it is a bit big to park

Exactly. That's in SA. Now imagine a modern European city with those tiny roads.

Every use case is different. For some, this sort of thing isn't a problem. For others it's a deal-breaker. This happens with all cars. Stop ignoring it in ICE and highlighting it in EVs. It's bias.

, but that is it. I don't need to really do much differently than I would if I went in a small city car.

Yes you do. There are parkings you simply can't use because your vehicle doesn't fit. You're prepared to work around those shortcomings, but they're there regardless.

The hassles of an EV for doing any sort of long range driving destroy any sort of practicality. Hence why they are not comparable. People had to invent a new EV specific mental illness for EVs.

but not everyone routinely does long range driving. So it doesn't destroy the practicality for everyone. This same principle is true for all cars.

You're myopically focused on how YOU use a car. I've already agreed that for how YOU use a car an EV in SA probably doesn't work. Why do you keep repeating this non-point?

 

[Sinbad]

Here's a planned 560km trip in my (short range) tesla.

Two charging stops for a total of 33 minutes. Hardly a hassle. You should be stopping to stretch your legs and have a break every 2 hours anyway. And if you have a wife you know damn well you'll be doing pee stops anyway!

 

[Zellephant]

What hassles please?

Uhm. Range for one. Charging time another.

I gave a detailed report of my experience driving a Jaguar I-Pace from JHB to Cape Town Last year. It’s was terrible.

 

[Sinbad]

Uhm. Range for one. Charging time another.

I gave a detailed report of my experience driving a Jaguar I-Pace from JHB to Cape Town Last year. It’s was terrible.

See my previous post. And stop extrapolating a third world **** hole experience to reality anywhere else on the planet.

 

[konfab]

What hassles please?

Please read.

I use my car for more than just driving in a city. I have a 7 seater diesel van. When I go on holiday, I usually take a trailer.

Let's look at the alternatives: This is the cheapest 7 seater ev that could sort of replace my trusty Fiat.
https://ev-database.org/car/2160/Citroen-e-Berlingo-XL-50-kWh

R666 902,40, and it has a 230 km range.

With a fully packed trailer, that probably would be take it down to about 150 over long distances. That is just pathetic.

My 3rd hand Fiat van works very nicely in the city, and it works well when I want to haul the family away for a holiday.

I can add onto that. The guesthouse I am going to in a months time is about 210 km. So the cheapest EV that sort of fits my needs with a trailer will only make it about 150 km (it has 200km range on highway in mild weather) . And then it will need an 1.5 hours to charge halfway through, because the only EV charging station around the halfway point is 22kw.

Now I have to sit at a petrol station for an hour and a half with 2 kids and a baby whilst the stupid car charges on a trip that might have taken 2 hours and 40 minutes with the 8 year old diesel van.

Yeah, that is the exact definition of a hassle

 

[Zellephant]

You're still talking edge cases here to be honest.

And, if that's your requirement, nothing stops you renting a SUV for 2 weeks.

Renting an SUV for 2 weeks will cost me around R25 000.00. I bought my V8 Diesel Range Rover second hand for R200 000.00, and I get to drive it every day, plus go on holiday with it twice a year, towing a trailer, etc. and even though it’s almost 20 years old, it’s still more luxurious and a better drive than the Fortuner or Ford Everest I would be hiring.

Cheap as chips.

Here's a planned 560km trip in my (short range) tesla.

Two charging stops for a total of 33 minutes. Hardly a hassle. You should be stopping to stretch your legs and have a break every 2 hours anyway. And if you have a wife you know damn well you'll be doing pee stops anyway!

Thats a schlep. I make a similar trip relatively often. I live in Stellenbosch, my parents in Wilderness. 450km trip. We visit about once a month or so. I can drive from my home to theirs without needing to stop once. Then we can drive to the beach, take a trip into the forests, maybe even visit Knysna for lunch etc, and I still haven’t needed to fill up. Then, on Sunday afternoon, I fill up before leaving, it takes all of 5 minutes, and I drive home without needing to stop even once, coz the kids sleep most of the way home, and normally my wife too. Then once home, I can do all the driving I need to for the rest of the week, and still not need to worry about filling up again.

And that in an 18 year old car that still turns heads everywhere you park it, that is a joy to drive, on any road (or even when there no road), and has 220kw and 700NM of torque on demand whenever I need it.

See my previous post. And stop extrapolating a third world **** hole experience to reality anywhere else on the planet.

Does the range of the EV suddenly increase along with the HDI score of the country you drive it in? Are you suggesting if you used your Tesla for a road trip to the Caucasus, its range would decrease as you went further east? Because unless that’s what your are saying, I don’t know what your point about SA being a shithole has to do with the discussion on hand here.

The N1 route between JHB and Cape Town used in my example has excellent EV charging infrastructure, comparable to many European countries.

 

[Sinbad]

Renting an SUV for 2 weeks will cost me around R25 000.00. I bought my V8 Diesel Range Rover second hand for R200 000.00, and I get to drive it every day, plus go on holiday with it twice a year, towing a trailer, etc. and even though it’s almost 20 years old, it’s still more luxurious and a better drive than the Fortuner or Ford Everest I would be hiring.

Cheap as chips.

Thats a schlep. I make a similar trip relatively often. I live in Stellenbosch, my parents in Wilderness. 450km trip. We visit about once a month or so. I can drive from my home to theirs without needing to stop once. Then we can drive to the beach, take a trip into the forests, maybe even visit Knysna for lunch etc, and I still haven’t needed to fill up. Then, on Sunday afternoon, I fill up before leaving, it takes all of 5 minutes, and I drive home without needing to stop even once, coz the kids sleep most of the way home, and normally my wife too. Then once home, I can do all the driving I need to for the rest of the week, and still not need to worry about filling up again.

And that in an 18 year old car that still turns heads everywhere you park it, that is a joy to drive, on any road (or even when there no road), and has 220kw and 700NM of torque on demand whenever I need it.

Does the range of the EV suddenly increase along with the HDI score of the country you drive it in? Are you suggesting if you used your Tesla for a road trip to the Caucasus, its range would decrease as you went further east? Because unless that’s what your are saying, I don’t know what your point about SA being a shithole has to do with the discussion on hand here.

The N1 route between JHB and Cape Town used in my example has excellent EV charging infrastructure, comparable to many European countries.

Lol

 

[Johnatan56]

https://www.daze.eu/en/blog/used-electric-car-after-5-years


But lets look at the US now











https://carbuzz.com/ev-depreciation-over-5-years-ranked/



So we have multiple non Tesla EVs all depreciating faster than than their equivalent ICE cars in two different markets.

BUT ELAWN MUSK

Leaf had a cooling issue and outdated battery tech pre 2020, that's how you get stats for 5 year depreciation....
Renault Zoe had two versions, more expensive one had a 200km max range and a top speed of 135kmph, wonder why it didn't keep its value. Note as well that there is a range of like 22-30k on it depending on model.

This is besides that you need to factor in EV credits of like 6-7k into the price /subtract that as that's not depreciation for individuals if they do resale Calc.

Also unsure why you're quoting pre 2020 stuff when I'm specifically talking about modern 2nd hand.

Also if want to cherry pick ones, any jaguar, Opel resale values for ice after 5 years?

Also find it interesting that they say ioniq q5 has resale value of 22k after 5 years on 53k purchase price.

Here the budget model starts at like 37k, cheapest for that model I can find on willhaben (gumtree/everything resale equivalent in DACH) is 26k, so <30% for 2021 models if you factor in subsidies.

What? Since when it towing a trailer when going on holiday rare for most people? I means it’s not like tow bars are standard equipment on most family SUVs or anything, or like they sell luggage trailers with roof racks etc outside Makro for exactly this purpose.

Plus, Holidays normally require toys, like bikes/motorbikes/canoes/rubber ducks etc, on top of the whole families luggage etc.

Then there is obviously the myriad of caravan parks all over the place, which seem particularly popular over the holiday periods, both here, and in Europe.

So tell me again how it’s rare for people to tow a trailer when they go on holiday?

How often do people tow a trailer a distance? There's a study that was US based that over 75% of truck owners towed something/trailer less than once a year or not at all.

Your use case is rare. I've gone camping in cederberg pretty often, rare that people had trailers.

You're arguing no ICE car at all, I'm saying majority don't need/have the use case.

As an aside, using an electric moving fan is so much better than a combustion one, been using them helping friends the last few weeks.