Are SA laws really unjust?

[sox63]

I have read this a few times in this section and would love to ask forumites if they really think they are unjust?

The majority people complaining that they are unjust have for centuries been the beneficiaries of, lets say "prefferential" treatment.

How do those that believe some laws are unjust, typically the ones having to do with EE or BBBEE, how do you suggest we address the wrongs of the past?

I think it's a case of them saying, "yeah we know it is necessary, BUT don't change the things that affect us!"

Just my opinion.

 

[Darth Garth]

I have read this a few times in this section and would love to ask forumites if they really think they are unjust?

The majority people complaining that they are unjust have for centuries been the beneficiaries of, lets say "prefferential" treatment.

How do those that believe some laws are unjust, typically the ones having to do with EE or BBBEE, how do you suggest we address the wrongs of the past?

I think it's a case of them saying, "yeah we know it is necessary, BUT don't change the things that affect us!"

Just my opinion.

Why do you even bother on this forum ... you will just read the same whingers and their whinging.

 

[Syndyre]

I have read this a few times in this section and would love to ask forumites if they really think they are unjust?

The majority people complaining that they are unjust have for centuries been the beneficiaries of, lets say "prefferential" treatment.

How do those that believe some laws are unjust, typically the ones having to do with EE or BBBEE, how do you suggest we address the wrongs of the past?

I think it's a case of them saying, "yeah we know it is necessary, BUT don't change the things that affect us!"

Just my opinion.

I presume this is a follow on from what I said in the Comair thread so I guess I should answer. Personally I think we need what could be called a true equality law, i.e. that nobody can be discriminated against on the basis of race, gender etc. This would presumably deal with the complaint that "white business" would never hire people that aren't also white. People would have to be considered on pure merit, nothing else. Obviously this isn't easy to implement in practice, nothing is.

Then what you need to fix is the education system, people can't do well and become successful if they're not well educated, generally anyway. Pump massive amounts of money into that and crack down hard on anyone who doesn't implement these plans properly. Then government should have merit and income-based bursaries for good schools, universities etc. to allow people the opportunity to go to these that they wouldn't have had otherwise. Due to the demographics of the country in terms of poverty etc. the beneficiaries of these bursaries would probably be 90% or more black so they would effectively achieve "black economic empowerment" but eliminating race from it would be a good way to go IMO. That way it could be a permanent policy too and as the country's demographics change it would continue to uplift whoever needed it, regardless of race.

My R0.02

 

[BT6LW]

Why do you even bother on this forum ... you will just read the same whingers and their whinging.

The Anvil was delicious... but irony

 

[alloytoo]

I have read this a few times in this section and would love to ask forumites if they really think they are unjust?

The majority people complaining that they are unjust have for centuries been the beneficiaries of, lets say "prefferential" treatment.

How do those that believe some laws are unjust, typically the ones having to do with EE or BBBEE, how do you suggest we address the wrongs of the past?

I think it's a case of them saying, "yeah we know it is necessary, BUT don't change the things that affect us!"

Just my opinion.

Apartheid 2000 is just unjust, it's also fundamentally stupid both in conception and implementation.

Much like the department really.

 

[Nod]

The wrongs of the past can be addresses by giving "the people" real power. Education and open truly free markets would be a good starting point. Don't prevent people from working, by limiting companies on who they may consider for employment. Any person that work productively and contribute to the success of that company, helps the government to get more tax money, which in turn could be used for education and incentive schemes for companies who invest in education.

BEE and AA does not help any person, sitting in a shack today. Those who do manage to get out of the squatter camps are very few and very far between. In the end, those are the people that are still being disadvantaged, only this time, it is their own people doing it to them.

A second place to start would be to employ capable people in government. If you have a effective government, that can actually spend the money in the budget competently, you are already on your way in serving the people that need it most.

 

[Getafix]

Ja tibby.

It is blatantly racist. What would you call a law that cause a race to get preferential treatment.

What did you guys struggle for?

Do you think for one stupid moment that the apartheid blokes didn't have the most plausible excuses for their policies. Their excuses sounded just as good as yours now. It just depended which side of the fence you are.

So now we correct a wrong with another wrong. Again with the utmost intention to do "good." Ask any golfer: Correct a fault with a fault and you are far worse off than you were.

Easy question: If you discriminate by race,is it racism? No ifs or buts. Only yes or no.

 

[noxibox]

Affirmative action, employment equity and black economic empowerment are all in principal perfectly acceptable and reasonable. The problem is implementation. I can understand why they have quotas attached to affirmative action, but then at the very least you have to have a plan in place to produce educated people, and you have to implement the education and training groundwork first. Black economic empowerment should have been implemented to uplift a broad group, but has instead created a small wealthy black elite.

All white people benefitted in some way, whether they were poor or rich.

 

[Gothan]

Ok let me get in here....

First off, we benefitted from a social, political and financial environment, that we created. Thats right, we had the audacity to give ourselves a leg up, in basically the entire structure that we created.

Everything you see around you, where created by the "white minority", the monatary value with which you are enjoying your life, was conceived and constructed by us.

With the freedom struggle, it was preached that everyone is equal, and that was the huge banner. With 94 that suddenly changed, now we are all equal, but some are just a little bit equal than others. So the message was a bit distorted. Now for you to be equal, you need to be advantaged, strange, pretty sure that was also the message before 94 and that was unjust.

So when will this new government decide we are equal again?? Let me ask you this question, do you think there will ever be a white president of this country again? And if not, why not? We are suppose to be equal, but its being crammed down our sphincter, that we are only equal, when you are more equal then us.

Strange, before 94 it was the same, just reversed. So it was wrong then, but its right now, so long as you get the leg up, of course then its right

 

[alloytoo]

Affirmative action, employment equity and black economic empowerment are all in principal perfectly acceptable and reasonable. The problem is implementation. I can understand why they have quotas attached to affirmative action, but then at the very least you have to have a plan in place to produce educated people, and you have to implement the education and training groundwork first. Black economic empowerment should have been implemented to uplift a broad group, but has instead created a small wealthy black elite.

All white people benefitted in some way, whether they were poor or rich.

So what you're saying is Apartheid '48 was more efficent than Apartheid 2000 (for the benificaries)?

 

[icyrus]

I have read this a few times in this section and would love to ask forumites if they really think they are unjust?

The majority people complaining that they are unjust have for centuries been the beneficiaries of, lets say "prefferential" treatment.

How do those that believe some laws are unjust, typically the ones having to do with EE or BBBEE, how do you suggest we address the wrongs of the past?

I think it's a case of them saying, "yeah we know it is necessary, BUT don't change the things that affect us!"

Just my opinion.

This is not a deep philosophical question. Discrimination is wrong, in all forms for whatever reasons.

Now, addressing of the wrongs of the past does lead down the philosophical road due to the fact that you can never change the past. Those who were wronged can never have that removed from them, so in essence when most people say "correct the wrongs of the past" they mean compensation.

The other buzz word around this issue is transformation. This is the big one - the stated point of AA/BEE/etc... For me the current popular thinking on the issue is completely flawed.

 

[GougedEye]

Affirmative action, employment equity and black economic empowerment are all in principal perfectly acceptable and reasonable.

Largely agree. Sure it's unfair, but the reality is that we have to deal with the economic situation that has been created or we will suffer the consequences later. We can't simply let things continue as they were. What is happening now is a long, long way from what apartheid was. Those making that comparison don't seem to realise the extent of the enforced discrimination in the "good old days".

I have issues with how things have been implemented though. Too much stick and not enough carrot. And of course, all the BEE deals have become a farce.

 

[Fuma]

I have read this a few times in this section and would love to ask forumites if they really think they are unjust?

The majority people complaining that they are unjust have for centuries been the beneficiaries of, lets say "prefferential" treatment.

How do those that believe some laws are unjust, typically the ones having to do with EE or BBBEE, how do you suggest we address the wrongs of the past?

I think it's a case of them saying, "yeah we know it is necessary, BUT don't change the things that affect us!"

Just my opinion.

This, IMHO, is a constructive thread - up to so far.
I hope more people, with positive inputs, should participate/reply on it.

I think investing in education from primary and secondary schools is a long-term solution. I don't think the government is doing enough though.

BEE hasn't worked for mebecause I'm not yet economically empowered - whatever that means.
As for EE, I think it is working for me because I didn't have the best education growing up - up until I got to a tertiary institution.
In the future, maybe we won't need this whole BEE/EE thing, but for now, I think we need it - properly implemented of course.

Then, my question is, how can we implement BEE/EE without affecting the other race?

 

[w1z4rd]

Laws like the criminalization of prostitution and marijuana are unjust and hypocritical. I wouldn't be surprised if they were thought up by a bunch of right wing racists. Oh... they were... Regarding AA/BEE... well basically you are fighting racism with racism.

 

[rwenzori]

How do those that believe some laws are unjust, typically the ones having to do with EE or BBBEE, how do you suggest we address the wrongs of the past?

There is so much history behind us that it is difficult to put the current situation into context, from a white or privileged person's point of view. Maybe if more time allows.....

I think the first principle is the profound quote lsuacner uses as his sig:

"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race." - John Roberts

To me, the way forward, which is the only way the "wrongs" of the past will be overcome, is to remove all racial discrimination from the statute books and constitution. And to significantly reduce the protection of labour. Merely squeezing assets and income out of whites, as the ANC have done and continue to do, is counterproductive and not sustainable. Everybody must be free to compete equally and the economy will grow, and that is the only key to our problems. Greater production means greater wealth means enough money for education, poverty relief, etc etc.

All that the current discriminatory legislation does is force the whites ( mostly, anyway ) to leave, or to find ways of hiding the wealth to keep those grubby ANC paws off it. And it demotivates, causes resentment, fosters racial dislikes and hatreds.

IMHO and all that.

 

[Nod]

Then, my question is, how can we implement BEE/EE without affecting the other race?

How about if government give a xx% tax break over xx years for every person a company train, up to a limit obviously. They don't loose the tax break if the person look for greener pastures.

 

[dlk001]

Affirmative action, employment equity and black economic empowerment are all in principal perfectly acceptable and reasonable. The problem is implementation. I can understand why they have quotas attached to affirmative action, but then at the very least you have to have a plan in place to produce educated people, and you have to implement the education and training groundwork first. Black economic empowerment should have been implemented to uplift a broad group, but has instead created a small wealthy black elite.

All white people benefitted in some way, whether they were poor or rich.

Good points!

In my experience/exposure so far, implementation and communication has been the problem both by private and government sector.

Government and Private sector need to work together to a common goal regarding transformation. After that, they both need to invest respective resources to what is necessary to reach the goals.

Both parties have different priorities and somehow, they have to work to find a balance instead of blaming each other.

 

[alloytoo]

This, IMHO, is a constructive thread - up to so far.
I hope more people, with positive inputs, should participate/reply on it.

I think investing in education from primary and secondary schools is a long-term solution. I don't think the government is doing enough though.

BEE hasn't worked for mebecause I'm not yet economically empowered - whatever that means.
As for EE, I think it is working for me because I didn't have the best education growing up - up until I got to a tertiary institution.
In the future, maybe we won't need this whole BEE/EE thing, but for now, I think we need it - properly implemented of course.

Then, my question is, how can we implement BEE/EE without affecting the other race?

It all boils down to education.

At a fundemental level we need people who can read and write. If we can't get that right then it's all for naught.

Upliftment programs should be based on who is currently disadvantaged, not the dubious "previous disadvantaged" tag which government is basically equating to "Black."

 

[Albereth]

The majority people complaining that they are unjust have for centuries been the beneficiaries of, lets say "prefferential" treatment.

Fortunately on planet Earth the majority of people don't live for centuries otherwise we'd be putting up with nonsense for a long time.

 

[Syndyre]

Largely agree. Sure it's unfair, but the reality is that we have to deal with the economic situation that has been created or we will suffer the consequences later. We can't simply let things continue as they were. What is happening now is a long, long way from what apartheid was. Those making that comparison don't seem to realise the extent of the enforced discrimination in the "good old days".

I have issues with how things have been implemented though. Too much stick and not enough carrot. And of course, all the BEE deals have become a farce.

We have to deal with the economic situation but is this the best way to deal with it? IMO no, its a false dichotomy to say we have to choose between continuing apartheid and BEE/AA.

Then, my question is, how can we implement BEE/EE without affecting the other race?

I don't think you can, at least not in its current implementation. Of course affecting the other race i.e. white is pretty much a prerequisite because things weren't equal before so to get to true equality people will be affected. I just don't agree with the situation where instead of equality the roles have just been reversed.