Are SA laws really unjust?

[sox63]

Ok, there seems to be a trend that AA/BBBEE should be class based (well, from what I interpret from the above posts) and not raced based, however is that not in essence the same? The poorest of the poor in this country are still Black, and at what point do you say, okay you are well off enough and thus do not qualify?

And to think of it most white people fall in the middle to richer class of the country, would they not still be excluded?

 

[Syndyre]

There is so much history behind us that it is difficult to put the current situation into context, from a white or privileged person's point of view. Maybe if more time allows.....

I think the first principle is the profound quote lsuacner uses as his sig:



To me, the way forward, which is the only way the "wrongs" of the past will be overcome, is to remove all racial discrimination from the statute books and constitution. And to significantly reduce the protection of labour. Merely squeezing assets and income out of whites, as the ANC have done and continue to do, is counterproductive and not sustainable. Everybody must be free to compete equally and the economy will grow, and that is the only key to our problems. Greater production means greater wealth means enough money for education, poverty relief, etc etc.

All that the current discriminatory legislation does is force the whites ( mostly, anyway ) to leave, or to find ways of hiding the wealth to keep those grubby ANC paws off it. And it demotivates, causes resentment, fosters racial dislikes and hatreds.

IMHO and all that.

Agree 100%.

Good points!

In my experience/exposure so far, implementation and communication has been the problem both by private and government sector.

Government and Private sector need to work together to a common goal regarding transformation. After that, they both need to invest respective resources to what is necessary to reach the goals.

Both parties have different priorities and somehow, they have to work to find a balance instead of blaming each other.

What do you think the common goal should be? That's the big question.

 

[feo]

I just don't agree with the situation where instead of equality the roles have just been reversed.

Last time I said this one of the forumites told me "Oh so it's Apartheid in reverse, so that's a good thing". Pffffffffffffffffffft

 

[XCentricdave]

Everything you see around you, where created by the "white minority", the monatary value with which you are enjoying your life, was conceived and constructed by us.

Hmmm, maybe

...but with the help and very cheap labour of the whole of the population used to make it happen.

 

[Syndyre]

Ok, there seems to be a trend that AA/BBBEE should be class based (well, from what I interpret from the above posts) and not raced based, however is that not in essence the same? The poorest of the poor in this country are still Black, and at what point do you say, okay you are well off enough and thus do not qualify?

And to think of it most white people fall in the middle to richer class of the country, would they not still be excluded?

That was my point, than in essence it would be the same, but it would be more acceptable to people and not racist and would also give opportunities to the poor that aren't black, which, while they may be a relatively small percentage, still matter.

I suppose you'd have to take a percentage, say the lowest 20% or whatever, that's just an arbitary number, you'd obviously have to look into it more.

Aside from just making it class based I also think it should be primarily economic, for instance if a poor black person was given a bursary to study because of their financial situation and paid less than me for university that's understandable, what I don't accept is that their entrance requirements should be e.g. 50% and mine 70% or that they should get a job before me if they're less qualified.

And yes, being white and privileged I would still be excluded from the scheme but in this case I think it would be a fair exclusion, if that's possible.

 

[Syndyre]

Last time I said this one of the forumites told me "Oh so it's Apartheid in reverse, so that's a good thing". Pffffffffffffffffffft

How people can actually acknowledge something as Apartheid in reverse and still justify it amazes me.

 

[alloytoo]

Ok, there seems to be a trend that AA/BBBEE should be class based (well, from what I interpret from the above posts) and not raced based, however is that not in essence the same? The poorest of the poor in this country are still Black, and at what point do you say, okay you are well off enough and thus do not qualify?

And to think of it most white people fall in the middle to richer class of the country, would they not still be excluded?

Most countries have policies where the middle and upper classes don't qualify for benefits designed to uplift the poor.

In South Africa the policies are designed to make me poor and then deny me benefits.

 

[Albereth]

Most countries have policies where the middle and upper classes don't qualify for benefits designed to uplift the poor.

In South Africa the policies are designed to make me poor and then deny me benefits.

Well, we get to application again. Land Bank was set up to assist ailing white farmers all those years ago. Now it is meant to help all ailing farmers. All it has seemed to do of late is help a few fat cats build a golf estate or two.

 

[dlk001]

This, IMHO, is a constructive thread - up to so far.I hope more people, with positive inputs, should participate/reply on it.

I think investing in education from primary and secondary schools is a long-term solution. I don't think the government is doing enough though.

BEE hasn't worked for mebecause I'm not yet economically empowered - whatever that means.
As for EE, I think it is working for me because I didn't have the best education growing up - up until I got to a tertiary institution.
In the future, maybe we won't need this whole BEE/EE thing, but for now, I think we need it - properly implemented of course.

Then, my question is, how can we implement BEE/EE without affecting the other race?

I was a product of Bantu Education. It was terrible and ineffective but there was still a hunger for education. This is why my generation of black people are doing so well. Its because as the opportunities are presenting themselves, we are naturally the biggest beneficiaries due to our education.

Investing in education is definitely the sustainable solution. I say, BEE should be Black Education Empowerment. Government should invest in empowering the black schools in townships etc. By doing that, there would be no rush for those poor parents to spend so much money to educate their children in suburbs.

Education should not mean university education. I studied at a Technical High School and out of 100 metric students, only 10 would make it to university. The rest went on to technikons, technical colleges etc. The work place needs all levels of personnel skills and when one reads the HRC, its obvious that there is a skills unbalance.

I'm one of those who say EE is working for me. I have very good reasons but I'd rather discuss less sensitive and positive issues. We need to learn from present experiences and implement EE better.

 

[noxibox]

Ask any golfer: Correct a fault with a fault and you are far worse off than you were.

Forget golfers. Ask any martial artist. If your one side is weaker you should favour the weak side.

 

[chiskop]

How people can actually acknowledge something as Apartheid in reverse and still justify it amazes me.

Nope. It is reductionist and silly to call what we have at the moment Apartheid in reverse, or alloytoo's current catchphrase Apartheid 2000.

Are whites restricted to dormitory towns on the periphery? Are whites not allowed to own businesses, required to carry passes or any of the other many indignities that apartheid involved?

Let's be honest - if you're white you are more than likely far better off than the majority of the rest of the population. If you are white you are not suffering Apartheid in reverse.

I'm not saying that I'm happy with the way that current AA/EE type policies are implemented, but to call it apartheid in reverse is just simplistic.

 

[Syndyre]

Investing in education is definitely the sustainable solution. I say, BEE should be Black Education Empowerment. Government should invest in empowering the black schools in townships etc. By doing that, there would be no rush for those poor parents to spend so much money to educate their children in suburbs.

Definitely, the schools in the suburbs can only accommodate so many people anyway, its not sustainable for everybody to go there.

Education should not mean university education. I studied at a Technical High School and out of 100 metric students, only 10 would make it to university. The rest went on to technikons, technical colleges etc. The work place needs all levels of personnel skills and when one reads the HRC, its obvious that there is a skills unbalance.

True, it seems there's a massive need for artisans.

 

[Syndyre]

Nope. It is reductionist and silly to call what we have at the moment Apartheid in reverse, or alloytoo's current catchphrase Apartheid 2000.

Are whites restricted to dormitory towns on the periphery? Are whites not allowed to own businesses, required to carry passes or any of the other many indignities that apartheid involved?

Let's be honest - if you're white you are more than likely far better off than the majority of the rest of the population. If you are white you are not suffering Apartheid in reverse.

I'm not saying that I'm happy with the way that current AA/EE type policies are implemented, but to call it apartheid in reverse is just simplistic.

I didn't call it Apartheid in reverse, someone else did. My point was if you genuinely consider it to be Apartheid in reverse AND consider that to be a good thing then something's very wrong.

I don't agree with it but I also agree that calling it apartheid in reverse is stupid.

 

[sox63]

Investing in education is definitely the sustainable solution. I say, BEE should be Black Education Empowerment. Government should invest in empowering the black schools in townships etc. By doing that, there would be no rush for those poor parents to spend so much money to educate their children in suburbs.

I agree with you on that one. Even though Goverment has improved the education quality in township schools, they don't have the same facilities as suburb schools. So you have a situation where they learn the theoretical stuff, but not practical application of it, case in point being biology, I never saw a bunson burner until i got to a suburb school.

It also does not help when suburb schools make it difficult for black people to attend there, when they say they are Afrikaans school only, or whatever basis for exclusion they dream up, but thats a story for another thread.

 

[alloytoo]

Nope. It is reductionist and silly to call what we have at the moment Apartheid in reverse, or alloytoo's current catchphrase Apartheid 2000.

Are whites restricted to dormitory towns on the periphery? Are whites not allowed to own businesses, required to carry passes or any of the other many indignities that apartheid involved?

Let's be honest - if you're white you are more than likely far better off than the majority of the rest of the population. If you are white you are not suffering Apartheid in reverse.

I'm not saying that I'm happy with the way that current AA/EE type policies are implemented, but to call it apartheid in reverse is just simplistic.

Isn't that what BEE is?

The fact of the matter is the current policies are driving people into exile.

US, Canada, UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand are all reaping the benefit of our skills capital.

 

[alloytoo]

I agree with you on that one. Even though Goverment has improved the education quality in township schools, they don't have the same facilities as suburb schools. So you have a situation where they learn the theoretical stuff, but not practical application of it, case in point being biology, I never saw a bunson burner until i got to a suburb school.

It also does not help when suburb schools make it difficult for black people to attend there, when they say they are Afrikaans school only, or whatever basis for exclusion they dream up, but thats a story for another thread.

So afrikaans kids aren't allowed mother tongue education........

 

[sox63]

Isn't that what BEE is?

Nope, whites are not excluded in owning a business. However there are differing levels of contribution to BEE, and thus to rate higher, you almost certainly have to have Black ownership in the business.

And not all businesses have to have black ownership. If your revenue is below a certain point, IIRC R 20 mil, then ownership is not taken into consideration, they then look at your spending on other empowered businesses.

 

[Syndyre]

I agree with you on that one. Even though Goverment has improved the education quality in township schools, they don't have the same facilities as suburb schools. So you have a situation where they learn the theoretical stuff, but not practical application of it, case in point being biology, I never saw a bunson burner until i got to a suburb school.

That's why I think there needs to be some sort of programme to either offer the top pupils a chance to attend "suburb schools" or to build some similarly equipped schools in the township that could then be selective about who they take, maybe a high school people could apply to? Obviously it'd be better if everyone had these facilities but realistically that's not possible for a while.

 

[Getafix]

Forget golfers. Ask any martial artist. If your one side is weaker you should favour the weak side.

 

[Nod]

It also does not help when suburb schools make it difficult for black people to attend there, when they say they are Afrikaans school only, or whatever basis for exclusion they dream up, but thats a story for another thread.

Ok, so a school in a suburb, with a majority of Afrikaans people, have schools to support their children's education. But according to you, they are not allowed to do this, because they should take in kids from other suburbs as well?

This is why schools are in the state they are in. Kids don't get educated in their home language, and classrooms are overcrowded. All of these factors lowers the standard of education.

The government was smart to force schools to become duel medium, because that moves the problem of not enough schools, and quality education from the townships to the suburbs. All they have accomplished, is to take a working system, and diminish it into a equally ineffective one.