Are SA laws really unjust?

GougedEye said:
Again not true.

Yes I know about the dubious analysis you are basing this on. Two things you should know about the institues survey. The results of that analysis conflict with all other economic data we have available. The methods they used to reach these conclusions are not available either. Immediate cause for a rational reader to raise an eyebrow in suspicion.

What the survey / analysis actually found was that the number of people living on less than x US dollars a day has increased. This arbitrarily pegs the dollar as the unit for determining poverty and ignores the fact that the exchange rate has changed radically in this time period. Now if the poor were buying bread in the US this would mean a lot more, but the fact is they are not. We don't know what else may be wrong about the survey as, like I said, they don't want to tell how it was done.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.
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x = 1 IIRC. The fact that the number of people living on less than 1 USD a day has doubled is pretty damning. And the price of bread and other goods is affected by global commodity prices so the exchange rate does play a role in people's purchasing power.
 
GougedEye said:
Firstly, government does not forbid a person from working at certain jobs, places etc because of race. What they do is require companies to hire certain numbers of certain races. There is a subtle but significant difference there.
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Do you believe this obsession with race is a healthy way forward for our country?
 
GougedEye said:
Again not true.

Yes I know about the dubious analysis you are basing this on. ......
...
...We don't know what else may be wrong about the survey as, like I said, they don't want to tell how it was done.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.
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I think there are going to be many claims and counter-claims around whose surveys and figures are a true-er reflection, however I found Mbeki's tirade against the SAIRR quite amusing:

On Monday, the SAIRR published a report which claimed that "using the globally accepted measure of poverty, of people living on less than one US dollar a day, poverty has increased in South Africa, both in absolute numbers and proportionally. The proportion of South Africans living on less than $1 a day doubled between 1996 and 2005".

Mbeki said, however, according to the "Development Indicators Mid-Term Review" published by the Presidency in June, since 2002 strong overall income growth, including the expansion of social grants, had resulted in the rise of the income of the poorest 10% to 20% of the population.

The review said per capita real income for the poorest 10% in 1996 was R522, which increased to R734 by 2006.

The figures for the poorest 20% were R758 and R1 051.
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... apply official inflation and the presidencies' own report shows that the poor are worse off now than in '96

What a chop
 
GougedEye said:
Well you sure seem to battle to understand what apartheid was. Or perhaps more accurately, you prefer to ignore it in order to make this highly, highly exagerated comparison.
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A policy based on race is a policy based on race is a policy based on race. Who's being discriminated against does make it any more acceptable. Making disparaging assumptions about my understanding of apartheid doesn't suddenly not make it discrimination.

Firstly, government does not forbid a person from working at certain jobs, places etc because of race. What they do is require companies to hire certain numbers of certain races. There is a subtle but significant difference there.
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Hardly, its simply another angle the end result is the same. Hire the wrong race group and the government shouts at you and calls you names.


Try and understand this. Companies are required to hire more blacks / women because pretty much all the good / managerial jobs are occupied overwhelmingly by white males. Why is this? Because it was under apartheid, illegal to hire blacks for anything much more than menial labour. No quotas, not timeframes etc. Just flat out illegal. This was made worse by the fact that government policy was to deny black children a decent education wherever possible (and to shoot them if they complained).
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Try to understand this, it was wrong to social engineer then, it is wrong to social engineer now.

Why? because it doesn't work!


Now along come the right wing who created this situation screaming that it is racist to undo the effects of their racism and establish a normal society. It's like a bank robber who has received a pardon demanding that he be allowed to keep his loot.
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All whites are raciest white wing wanna be bank robbers? Thanks

1994 was the first election I voted in. Thanks.
 
icyrus said:
Do you believe this obsession with race is a healthy way forward for our country?
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Do u agree that black people were excluded in businesses, companies, economy and all that in the past apartheid government?

I personally don't think it's wrong if the current government forces all these entities to include these black people. Of course a lot of other races won't like or be comfortable with it, but I think it is this government's responsibility to include black people in all the things they were excluded from.
 
McSack said:
... apply official inflation and the presidencies' own report shows that the poor are worse off now than in '96

What a chop
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Lol. You don't know what per capita REAL income means do you? Before calling him a chop go and look that up. Hint. It has something to do with inflation.

I don't want to get into defending Mbeki's record on reducing poverty and increasing employment as I think it's not at all a good one. But perhaps people should think a bit before they join the mindless shrieking mob.
 
Heita_Hola said:
Do u agree that black people were excluded in businesses, companies, economy and all that in the past apartheid government?
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Do you agree that they could have started a business, company or partake in the economy in any off the homelands?

Maybe not ideal, but they won't excluded everywhere. A import/export business could have done well in the homelands.

//me puts on flame resistant suit
 
GougedEye said:
Lol. You don't know what per capita REAL income means do you? Before calling him a chop go and look that up. Hint. It has something to do with inflation.

I don't want to get into defending Mbeki's record on reducing poverty and increasing employment as I think it's not at all a good one. But perhaps people should think a bit before they join the mindless shrieking mob.
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oops... missed the "real" bit :o. It was something coming from the presidency though so it could be a word my mind subconsciously blanked out :)
 
Nod said:
Do you agree that they could have started a business, company or partake in the economy in any off the homelands?

Maybe not ideal, but they won't excluded everywhere. A import/export business could have done well in the homelands.

//me puts on flame resistant suit
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This has my nomination for the dumbest and most ignorant post of the day.:eek:

Or it is just a sad excuse at trolling.
 
McSack said:
oops... missed the "real" bit :o. It was something coming from the presidency though so it could be a word my mind subconsciously blanked out :)
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Yeah I often do that as well. :) And he does tend to get very long winded and complicated in his articles.
 
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Nod said:
Do you agree that they could have started a business, company or partake in the economy in any off the homelands?

//me puts on flame resistant suit
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I take u don't agree that black people were excluded!

Maybe not ideal, but they won't excluded everywhere. A import/export business could have done well in the homelands.
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U don't sound convinced urself to what u r suggesting.

Like sox said
sox63 said:
I think it's a case of them saying, "yeah we know it is necessary, BUT don't change the things that affect us!"
Just my opinion.
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I nowhere said that Apartheid was right or justified for that matter. I merely tried to see the options available to people that were excluded from the SA market. If I'm wrong, and they couldn't do business in the homelands, then I'll apologize.
 
GougedEye said:
No I don't. But on the same hand you cannot simply ignore it and keep things how they were.
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No-one here is asking for things to stay as they were.

Heita_Hola said:
Do u agree that black people were excluded in businesses, companies, economy and all that in the past apartheid government?
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No one is arguing against that here.

Heita_Hola said:
I personally don't think it's wrong if the current government forces all these entities to include these black people. Of course a lot of other races won't like or be comfortable with it, but I think it is this government's responsibility to include black people in all the things they were excluded from.
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Its wrong that the government forces discrimination down our throats.

The government should be there to prevent all forms of discrimination - not proclaim which forms are currently acceptable.

The reality of South Africa is that the vast majority of people in this country are black and those numbers are growing. Economic transformation is as inevitable as the sun rise.
 
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