Are SA laws really unjust?

sox63 said:
I have read this a few times in this section and would love to ask forumites if they really think they are unjust?

The majority people complaining that they are unjust have for centuries been the beneficiaries of, lets say "prefferential" treatment.

How do those that believe some laws are unjust, typically the ones having to do with EE or BBBEE, how do you suggest we address the wrongs of the past?

I think it's a case of them saying, "yeah we know it is necessary, BUT don't change the things that affect us!":rolleyes:

Just my opinion.
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Say me (a white guy) and 8 other people (black and coloured) get appointed as contractors at the same time in June. After 3 months the black female technician gets appointed permanent, just cause of her gender and colour (to start with, she drove a better car than I have ever had). Now at the start of November everyone else gets appointed permanent except me, I'm am told I have to wait another 3 months at least to see if I can be appointed permenant. I do the same work as the others and often a little bit extra too, with more responsibility to boot...

How should I feel?
 
chiskop said:
Right. Pls point out to me all the black owners of JSE-listed companies prior to 1994 and then let's compare it to all white owners of JSE-listed companies post 94. (Feel free to choose any other comparison of economic status)

Which do you think will be the longer list?
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The list of black owners.

Your question isn't particularly good - blacks have never been kept out of the stock market. Not saying that it was easy for them to participate and not saying that they had outright ownership.

But I do say that the various pension funds and trade unions put their money somewhere. Those entities are acting on behalf of their members, a lot of whom have surnames beginning with the letter M.
 
As I said - feel free to choose whatever you think is an accurate representation of economic power, and compare blacks pre-94 to whites post-94.
 
supersunbird said:
Say me (a white guy) and 8 other people (black and coloured) get appointed as contractors at the same time in June. After 3 months the black female technician gets appointed permanent, just cause of her gender and colour (to start with, she drove a better car than I have ever had). Now at the start of November everyone else gets appointed permanent except me, I'm am told I have to wait another 3 months at least to see if I can be appointed permenant. I do the same work as the others and often a little bit extra too, with more responsibility to boot...

How should I feel?
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Like a white south african
 
Nod said:
Do you agree that they could have started a business, company or partake in the economy in any off the homelands?

Maybe not ideal, but they won't excluded everywhere. A import/export business could have done well in the homelands.

//me puts on flame resistant suit
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w.r.t Ciskei and many areas of Transkei, No. But I cannot speak for all former TBVC states. They could have but the barriers prevented them from doing so. So, Highway in Mdanstane, Fort Jackson, Dimbaza and Bisho was opened to a certain people outside Ciskei instead of people from within.

Yes, there were black owned backyard spaza shops where we bought candles, bread and parafin from.
 
Race-based legislation inevitably leads to comparisons between groups.

Africans are comparatively poorer wherever they are. People on Africa as a continent are generally poorer than people on other continents. As a group, the Africans in America are poorer than the Americans and similarly, the Africans in Europe are poorer than the Europeans, as a group.

We have the Employment Equity Act, the Promotion of Equality Act, The BEE Act, and the various sector charters and regulations. Does it not beg a question, with an answer too horrible to contemplate, if one group needs an entire body of legislation, over and above a liberal Constitution, to be equal to another?

Whether the legislation is "unjust" is an entirely unhelpful question. Life is not fair; why should legislation be?

Africa and its people will make money when they realise that only three things drive wealth:

1.) The pursuit of self-interest;
2.) The division of labour; and
3.) Freedom of trade.
 
icyrus said:
Its wrong that the government forces discrimination down our throats.
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In my experience, EE wouldn't have been 'forced' if the industry appeared to be willing to embrace transformation. What's worse is that even at a parastastal like CSIR, its still a problem from my experience and the feedback I get since I left years ago.
 
GougedEye said:
Well you sure seem to battle to understand what apartheid was. Or perhaps more accurately, you prefer to ignore it in order to make this highly, highly exagerated comparison.

Firstly, government does not forbid a person from working at certain jobs, places etc because of race. What they do is require companies to hire certain numbers of certain races. There is a subtle but significant difference there.

Try and understand this. Companies are required to hire more blacks / women because pretty much all the good / managerial jobs are occupied overwhelmingly by white males. Why is this? Because it was under apartheid, illegal to hire blacks for anything much more than menial labour. No quotas, not timeframes etc. Just flat out illegal. This was made worse by the fact that government policy was to deny black children a decent education wherever possible (and to shoot them if they complained).

Now along come the right wing who created this situation screaming that it is racist to undo the effects of their racism and establish a normal society. It's like a bank robber who has received a pardon demanding that he be allowed to keep his loot.
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So Apartheid Ver 2.0 is better than Apartheid Ver 1.0 in the same way let's say Windows Vista is better than Windows XP?

Government policy was to shoot black people if they complained? Where do you get this crap from?
 
dlk001 said:
w.r.t Ciskei and many areas of Transkei, No. But I cannot speak for all former TBVC states. They could have but the barriers prevented them from doing so. So, Highway in Mdanstane, Fort Jackson, Dimbaza and Bisho was opened to a certain people outside Ciskei instead of people from within.

Yes, there were black owned backyard spaza shops where we bought candles, bread and parafin from.
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Thanks for the answer. Appreciates it.
 
VJB 449 said:
Government policy was to shoot black people if they complained? Where do you get this crap from?
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Perharps it wasn't a policy but it did come across like that when it happened a couple of times. I mean really, why were we being shot at for refusing to be taught afrikaans at a technical school in a black surbub? It boufled me when we were jailed for that.
 
VJB 449 said:
So Apartheid Ver 2.0 is better than Apartheid Ver 1.0 in the same way let's say Windows Vista is better than Windows XP?
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There is no Apartheid 2.0.
VJB 449 said:
Government policy was to shoot black people if they complained? Where do you get this crap from?
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It's called history. Look it up. The specific remark was in reference to '76 and the gunning down of children who refused to be taught in afrikaans. There were lots and lots of other examples of police gunning down protesters, murdering political opponents etc. etc. Have you been asleep the last 15 years or are you just in denial?
 
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VJB 449 said:
Government policy was to shoot black people if they complained? Where do you get this crap from?
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Perharps it wasn't a policy but it did come across like that when it happened a couple of times. I mean really, why were we being shot at for refusing to be taught afrikaans at a technical school? It boufled me when we were jailed for that.
 
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Cataphract said:
We have the Employment Equity Act, the Promotion of Equality Act, The BEE Act, and the various sector charters and regulations. Does it not beg a question, with an answer too horrible to contemplate, if one group needs an entire body of legislation, over and above a liberal Constitution, to be equal to another?
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Another one who never heard of apartheid or colonialism. Aside from your implication that blacks are just dumb, can you think of any reason that blacks in SA are poorer than whites? Think hard now, I realise it's a difficult one. The afrikaaners nationalised the mines and imposed affirmative action in '48. Are we to assume that they are as dumb if not more so than Africans?
Cataphract said:
Whether the legislation is "unjust" is an entirely unhelpful question. Life is not fair; why should legislation be?
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Wow, typical right wing nonesense. Just because life is not fair doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make it so. Ok try this one. AA is not fair? So what, life isn't fair, why should laws be so? Or another way. Why are white farmers complaining about being kicked off their lands in Zimbabwe without compensation? Life id unfair as it should be.

You may favour the life is unfair justification for everything nasty that happens. I myself do not accept that.
Cataphract said:
Africa and its people will make money when they realise that only three things drive wealth:

1.) The pursuit of self-interest;
2.) The division of labour; and
3.) Freedom of trade.
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Actually africa already does that. Under that system of selfishness first, the small minority at the top of the pile get everything while the majority get nothing. It's what it's is all about. The pesuit of self interest and damn everyone else. It's in very effectrive practice in Zimbabwe right now.Your suggestion of unrestrained capitalism is not practiced anywhere in the world today. Not in Europe, the US etc.
 
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