Are things really that bad in SA?

[SauRoNZA]

Wrong. The following don't cost money:
Walking along Kloof street and visiting some friends who live closeby, and just chatting to them and meeting them up in a park, the sidewalk, or in a bar, and not even drinking anything.
Walking on an unspoilt beach.
Hiking up Table Mountain.
Jogging morning early on Seapoint Promenade.

Wrong. Being in the position to do any of those things based on the location and having the free time already states they have enough money to go around. All those things are from a position of privilege.

Being invited by richer friends to go 4x4 at Atlantis.

Interesting you should say “richer” implying they are already rich and proving my point.

Being friendly, innovative, charismatic, and helpful at your workplace and running around in a frokkie and helping everyone who needs help.
Voluntary work and smiling while doing it.
Cleaning up some beach.
I can go on... main thing is the attitude associated with those people. And that you cannot do those things in Europe with such an attitude, smiling, and with sun on your face.

You have a weird obsession with frokkies, which I actually think might be spelt vrokkie.

Also you are describing extroverted people, not really successful people.

Actually to be honest I don’t understand what your point is or how your descriptions relate at all.

Those people can in fact do all of that anywhere; it has nothing to do with SA as such.

 

[Azbubu]

This guy just saw pics of First Thursdays.

 

[Archer]

Are things bad in SA? Yes and no
Yes you can have a really good quality of life with regards to food, drink, holidays, weather, etc provided you fall into a reasonable income bracket. But your day to day life is still heavily influenced by the prevalence of poverty and poor education (and the crime that goes with it). You can try live in a bubble as much as you want but simply creating that bubble already takes a toll.

 

[SauRoNZA]

So I take it you're happy then? And don't need to leave SA?

.

Quite happy.

Wouldn’t particularly be against leaving SA if the cards fell like that, but not actively pursuing it either.

I’ve seen a few other parts of the world and none of them have left me yearning to move there.

 

[SauRoNZA]

This guy just saw pics of First Thursdays.

Thirst Thursdays?

 

[Bassist]

You could get killed tightrope walking across skyscrapers or riding in a train. If you had to do one of these every day, which one would you choose? Or are they really both equally dangerous - because neither has a zero probability of death?

Why would I had to choose between those two? Why not neither?

I could ensure I put myself into situations that are safe enough that the risk remains very low, or at least not the tightrope one.

Do you lick toilets? Do you walk around without a mask in a Covid ward? May as well if anyone could get sick... Also, leaving SA literally does make it better.

I personally became much more sick when I left SA. Much more colds, flu, allergies, and other problems.

What money? They're call agents.

See one of my posts earlier. You could invest in foreign stock markets, or just put your money on ice in a foreign account, hell you could even invest in a foreign venture by asking a friend or family member who's overseas.
This works because I know many that do this, especially nowadays.
And it's not big money either. Every little bit helps. A guy I know puts away R2000 every month.

Congrats, you've solved the unemployment problem.

Not completely, but I think a larger part of the population would get work if they stopped waiting for hand-outs and just diversify and be innovate.

Per the presupposition of your "horrible future" scenario, nobody decides to stay in a country undergoing economic collapse.

Do you still have a job?

You won't be able to nurture very much if Medicine gets nationalized, your child gets very sick and you are poor. What about your parents? Siblings? Extended family?

Medicine won't get get nationalized, there are way too many private pharmacies and the pharmaceutical industry in SA is way too big.

Studying something in demand, getting a professional job, perhaps going overseas somewhere based on a scare skills visa.

You're leaving out the part about it being actually very very hard (and costly!) to emigrate to overseas, adapt and settle, not see your family at home again, small little apartment, no friends, no network, having to start from scratch to prove yourself at your new job, etc. etc. etc. You'll always be seen as a foreigner.
Adapting in SA is much easier than adapting overseas.

I'm not sure why you think networking is the end goal. Success requires that and a whole lot more.

As I said (you must have missed it) it is ONE of the important characteristics. The others are important too.

You're the one who called them "bums". If these "bums" can only afford to share apartments with friends and live off a call agent's salary in a country as volatile as South Africa, they are subsisting.

But you are implying they will be in a world of **** when something goes wrong e.g. they lose their call centre job or the landlord kicks the whole lot out. Why would/must that be the default next scenario?

What if they made enough friends/contacts WHILE at the call centre job to have something new lined up immediately?
What if they made enough friends/contacts WHILE living like bums in the apartment in Kloof together, to already have been made aware of a new place where he/they can move to?

 

[Bassist]

Wrong. Being in the position to do any of those things based on the location

Every been to Hangberg in Hout Bay? Fantastic location, but the inhabitants are metres away from the beach or magical views of the mountain.

and having the free time already states they have enough money to go around.

A beggar also has lots of free time. And even people with low incomes who work 6 days a week are able to hike up Table Mountain on the Sunday.
You are making it sounds that one has to be a millionaire to be able to have time to do these things. The people I know who do these things are far, far from millionaires.

All those things are from a position of privilege.

Privilege of having been born in SA and living there, not privilege of having loads of money. See above.

Interesting you should say “richer” implying they are already rich and proving my point.

Not the people themselves, but the friends they know. Don't mix up the specific group of people I'm referring to.

Also you are describing extroverted people, not really successful people.

Maybe I am, but introverted people are not necessarily less social. Read up on the difference.

Actually to be honest I don’t understand what your point is or how your descriptions relate at all.

My descriptions relate to the characteristics, or the resulting effects thereof, that I'm trying to determine that define those successful people who enjoy that SA has to offer but seem immune, or dodge, the negative aspects of the country. Be as it may, they don't seem to be interested in emigrating.
That is my point of this thread.

Those people can in fact do all of that anywhere; it has nothing to do with SA as such.

Some of them can, but for the others they need their home country and it's characteristics, and their networks.
Overseas they'd have to start from scratch, or with much smaller networks, simply because they haven't been living there. Even still, no matter how friendly and innovative they are, they cannot magically move their parents/family to their new country in order to not miss them, and they cannot magically cause for more sunshine.

 

[Bassist]

Are things bad in SA? Yes and no
Yes you can have a really good quality of life with regards to food, drink, holidays, weather, etc provided you fall into a reasonable income bracket.

Define "reasonable income bracket."
How much do I need to earn to sit with friends on Clifton 4th on a Saturday sunset?

But your day to day life is still heavily influenced by the prevalence of poverty and poor education (and the crime that goes with it). You can try live in a bubble as much as you want but simply creating that bubble already takes a toll.

Burst the bubble by helping that new guy from less fortunate background, in your team at work, instead of going straight home after work to your Netflix.

 

[grok]

Of course it is.

No wait, its actually worse you just don't know it yet..

 

[SauRoNZA]

Every been to Hangberg in Hout Bay? Fantastic location, but the inhabitants are metres away from the beach or magical views of the mountain.
.

Quite honestly no need to even go further than this paragraph.

Anyone living in Hout Bay is dripping in wealth and privilege.

 

[Bassist]

Quite honestly no need to even go further than this paragraph.

Anyone living in Hout Bay is dripping in wealth and privilege.

You're kidding, right?

 

[Mephisto_Helix]

Def getting this vibe from this thread .....

 

[Archer]

Define "reasonable income bracket."
How much do I need to earn to sit with friends on Clifton 4th on a Saturday sunset?

Burst the bubble by helping that new guy from less fortunate background, in your team at work, instead of going straight home after work to your Netflix.

If you can't tell that I was referring to the fact that most well off South Africans live in self made prisons and behave accordingly once outside of said prison, then don't worry, SA is the perfect place to live and you have nothing to worry about. Only other thing you need to get right is to ignore anything relate to government, but that can be mostly achieved by money

 

[Charlie600]

We've been living in Europe for just under three years now, following an inter company transfer. Our personal experience to date and after visiting SA a couple of times during the time frame is that life in South Africa is really good, really easy and honestly DIRT CHEAP (especially from a labour, property and overall cost of living perspective)!
If most of the corruption in both state and private sector could removed whilst effecting a paradigm-shift within the political dynamics and crime, SA is indeed heaven on earth!

We truly love SA and will definitely return in future, for now however enjoying the adventure and opportunity to raise our kids in safe environment where they are taught English, French and Dutch (and Afrikaans at home) whilst not worrying about their safety when out in the forests etc. Although taxes are crazy, knowing that we can send them to university with the government footing pretty much all of the expenses for their tuition makes it worthwhile.

For context, in South Africa both my wife and I worked within corporate blue chip setups and during a really "bad" month where we overspent on everything, it was still easy to put an extra R60k+ into savings/investments/bond, over and above the standard payments that we made in this this regard together with the non negotiable savings etc.

Coming to Europe you're immediately part of the "(middle) middle class" with not even close to the same level of disposable income - a significant (mindset) adjustment is required soon after arrival, so as to become and remain content with what one can (and cannot) do from a financial perspective.

We wouldn't however change a thing for now given that we enjoying a braai 2-3 times a week, irrespective of rain or snow! Best of all, sourced a Richelieu and Haute Cabriere supplier so life is lekker! The only downside is that decent lamb start at the equivalent of around R700 per kg.

Moral of this story, there are some significant challenges in South Africa but the perceived reality that the grass is always greener in all respects outside of SA, is definitely not the case.

 

[The Voice]

Quite honestly no need to even go further than this paragraph.

Anyone living in Hout Bay is dripping in wealth and privilege.

"Republic of Hout Bay" - really says it all.

Does that sign still exist?

 

[The Voice]

We've been living in Europe for just under three years now, following an inter company transfer. Our personal experience to date and after visiting SA a couple of times during the time frame is that life in South Africa is really good, really easy and honestly DIRT CHEAP (especially from a labour, property and overall cost of living perspective)!
If most of the corruption in both state and private sector could removed whilst effecting a paradigm-shift within the political dynamics and crime, SA is indeed heaven on earth!

We truly love SA and will definitely return in future, for now however enjoying the adventure and opportunity to raise our kids in safe environment where they are taught English, French and Dutch (and Afrikaans at home) whilst not worrying about their safety when out in the forests etc. Although taxes are crazy, knowing that we can send them to university with the government footing pretty much all of the expenses for their tuition makes it worthwhile.

For context, in South Africa both my wife and I worked within corporate blue chip setups and during a really "bad" month where we overspent on everything, it was still easy to put an extra R60k+ into savings/investments/bond, over and above the standard payments that we made in this this regard together with the non negotiable savings etc.

Coming to Europe you're immediately part of the "(middle) middle class" with not even close to the same level of disposable income - a significant (mindset) adjustment is required soon after arrival, so as to become and remain content with what one can (and cannot) do from a financial perspective.

We wouldn't however change a thing for now given that we enjoying a braai 2-3 times a week, irrespective of rain or snow! Best of all, sourced a Richelieu and Haute Cabriere supplier so life is lekker! The only downside is that decent lamb start at the equivalent of around R700 per kg.

Moral of this story, there are some significant challenges in South Africa but the perceived reality that the grass is always greener in all respects outside of SA, is definitely not the case.

What you have to understand is that the majority of people in SA, and even in this thread, are not of the blue chip variety who could just stick away R60k in a bad month - or probably ever. You are one of the very few privileged South Africans who jumped ship despite having most things on a plate.

It's quite refreshing, though, to have the opinion of someone who didn't leave because financial opportunities had evaporated for them back home, and daily life had become a real struggle.

 

[SauRoNZA]

"Republic of Hout Bay" - really says it all.

Does that sign still exist?

Not sure actually, but quite likely.

 

[SauRoNZA]

What you have to understand is that the majority of people in SA, and even in this thread, are not of the blue chip variety who could just stick away R60k in a bad month - or probably ever. You are one of the very few privileged South Africans who jumped ship despite having most things on a plate.

It's quite refreshing, though, to have the opinion of someone who didn't leave because financial opportunities had evaporated for them back home, and daily life had become a real struggle.

Funnily enough the flipside also happens.

I know a great many foreigners who have settled locally making considerable investment and intend to stay for the foreseeable future because they can live the blue chip lifestyle here that they can’t in the UK, France and Germany.

Of course they can more easily eject than the locals should they ever want to.

 

[The Voice]

Funnily enough the flipside also happens.

I know a great many foreigners who have settled locally making considerable investment and intend to stay for the foreseeable future because they can live the blue chip lifestyle here that they can’t in the UK, France and Germany.

Of course they can more easily eject than the locals should they ever want to.

Somerset West is full of Germans and Brits who did exactly that.

 

[cguy]

Why would I had to choose between those two? Why not neither?

A little surprised that I have to explain, but it's an analogy illustrating your logical fallacy (two non-zero probabilities are treated equally by virtue of being non-zero, despite them being very different). The subjects being somewhere safer and somewhere less safe - you have to choose one.

I personally became much more sick when I left SA. Much more colds, flu, allergies, and other problems.

Not talking about colds here...

See one of my posts earlier. You could invest in foreign stock markets, or just put your money on ice in a foreign account, hell you could even invest in a foreign venture by asking a friend or family member who's overseas.
This works because I know many that do this, especially nowadays.
And it's not big money either. Every little bit helps. A guy I know puts away R2000 every month.

R2000/m isn't going to touch sides if the s hits the f.

Do you still have a job?

Yes - not sure how that is relevant though?

Medicine won't get get nationalized, there are way too many private pharmacies and the pharmaceutical industry in SA is way too big.

"Medicine" refers to the practice of medicine, not just pharmaceuticals. E.g., proposed NHI.

You're leaving out the part about it being actually very very hard (and costly!) to emigrate to overseas, adapt and settle, not see your family at home again, small little apartment, no friends, no network, having to start from scratch to prove yourself at your new job, etc. etc. etc. You'll always be seen as a foreigner.
Adapting in SA is much easier than adapting overseas.

Literally none of the above is true for me and many others, except perhaps for the new job part. Back to your OP - you're wondering about the wrong "secret formula".

As I said (you must have missed it) it is ONE of the important characteristics. The others are important too.

Like "does some form of active sport", "physically attractive" and "young" (your post #90) . Networking isn't a characteristic - ability to network is a characteristic. It's the only relevant concrete skill that you've mentioned, the rest is all BS that can be folded into "personable", and you have somehow left out the things that actually matter the most like "being highly competent and skilled".

But you are implying they will be in a world of **** when something goes wrong e.g. they lose their call centre job or the landlord kicks the whole lot out. Why would/must that be the default next scenario?

"Good" decisions in life include softening/minimizing worst case scenarios. Ideally they don't happen, but if they do one needs to be prepared.

What if they made enough friends/contacts WHILE at the call centre job to have something new lined up immediately?
What if they made enough friends/contacts WHILE living like bums in the apartment in Kloof together, to already have been made aware of a new place where he/they can move to?

What if they didn't? Who would voluntarily rely on friends as a safety net? Are their friends going to pay for their private cancer treatment too? Or put up their out of money parents or grandparents? It's not enough to subsist, or to just have a network.