Are things really that bad in SA?

[Mephisto_Helix]

(higher is better) is an estimation of overall quality of life by using an empirical formula which takes into account purchasing power index (higher is better), pollution index (lower is better), house price to income ratio (lower is better), cost of living index (lower is better), safety index (higher is better), health care index (higher is better), traffic commute time index (lower is better) and climate index (higher is better).

Love this ..... people think a braai on the weekend, a beach and a bigger property is all that matters.

 

[RedViking]

Love this ..... people think a braai on the weekend, a beach and a bigger property is all that matters.

What more do you want?

 

[Bassist]

You think that call center agents living in shared apartments "like bums" in the CBD in a highly challenged country, while living it up in Kloof street are not skating on the edge of disaster? Or that they are likely to have any of the above characteristics?

No, I don't think they are. Why would they be?

What will happen tomorrow or in the future with them that will be so horrible?

Do you have any idea how much energy these people have and how resourceful and adaptable they are?

During midnight hours they are working in their international call centres and making contacts with other international colleagues where they receive hints and leads for overseas travel / work / other opportunities. Or while stuffing themselves in Kloof Street. Or bumming together in one small living room. Expaning their networks. While you/we are watching Netflix at home with our SO next to us...

 

[Bassist]

This is not in general true. Pretty much every comparison that I've seen that draws this conclusion is comparing apples to oranges. Yeah, you're not going to get a 4 bedroom house like you have in Somerset West in London, Amsterdam, Sydney or New York anytime soon, but there are far more to other countries than just their biggest cities.

Well it's in the bigger cities that you'll find your first job, or if not, some one horse town in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Bassist]

Quite interesting that for purchasing power we are still at 27 in there which isn't half bad and much better than I expected.

Cost of living in the 59th also isn't terrible.

Just wanted to point that out too.

Considering how horrible the country is, and the ANC, 39 is not bad at all. And look at some of the countries we're beating!

 

[Bassist]

You think people leave because they have debt

/signing out OP must be trolling

I don't like what you say. You won't agree to my point.

Hence, you must be trolling.

 

[Azbubu]

Have we figured out the formula yet? I’d like to walk around on Kloof street eating craft burgers and drinking craft beer after lockdown. I’ve already tossed out all my shoes.

 

[cguy]

No, I don't think they are. Why would they be?

What will happen tomorrow or in the future with them that will be so horrible?

They could be killed, they could get sick, hyperinflation and/or economic collapse could destroy their wealth, they might find it impossible to find employment, they may require emergency funds for something, they may be disallowed from entering other countries. All of this could apply to family members, children, etc. too.

Do you have any idea how much energy these people have and how resourceful and adaptable they are?

During midnight hours they are working in their international call centres and making contacts with other international colleagues where they receive hints and leads for overseas travel / work / other opportunities. Or while stuffing themselves in Kloof Street. Or bumming together in one small living room. Expaning their networks. While you/we are watching Netflix at home with our SO next to us...

Apparently not resourceful or adaptable enough to see that this is hardly the ideal path to achieve such goals. Don't get me wrong - it's cool that they're motivated, but it's like you seem to have an 80's style cigarette ad view of them.

You can "live the life" in Kloof street, while barely subsisting, but it is particularly dangerous to barely subsist in South Africa. They may also have things "on the go", which is cool if properly directed, otherwise it's just talk, and it usually is just talk. It looks like you're putting these two quoted items together, and equating it to "success", when it's actually "dangerous with dubious outcome".

Well it's in the bigger cities that you'll find your first job, or if not, some one horse town in the middle of nowhere.

That's a false dichotomy - there are plenty of options in between.

 

[Ancalagon]

No, I don't think they are. Why would they be?

What will happen tomorrow or in the future with them that will be so horrible?

Do you have any idea how much energy these people have and how resourceful and adaptable they are?

During midnight hours they are working in their international call centres and making contacts with other international colleagues where they receive hints and leads for overseas travel / work / other opportunities. Or while stuffing themselves in Kloof Street. Or bumming together in one small living room. Expaning their networks. While you/we are watching Netflix at home with our SO next to us...

What is it with you and call centre agents?

Call centre agents are considered close to unskilled labour. They get paid one third to one half of what professional labour can get. So, much, much less.

Also, I'm going to be a real dick here and say what good does networking do if you are a call centre agent? You don't have any valuable skills. If you did, you wouldn't be a call centre agent.

 

[Ancalagon]

Have we figured out the formula yet? I’d like to walk around on Kloof street eating craft burgers and drinking craft beer after lockdown. I’ve already tossed out all my shoes.

You've just reminded of a story I read on this forum about a redheaded guy who pretended to be a lost American and used that to beg/scam for money.

 

[SauRoNZA]

While you/we are watching Netflix at home with our SO next to us...

Yes...because we don’t need to build out networks and work ourselves to the bone at odd hours to keep going any longer.

Being able to sit at home, in a house you own and watch Netflix is a sign of success in your example, not a failure.

Networks and expanding them is only relevant to those who require advancement, not those who have already made it.

Also having worked in Kloof Street for many years it’s really not all that. You have a weird obsession with repeatedly bringing that up as a measure of success.

In fact it’s more like hipster bum central.

 

[cguy]

Yes...because we don’t need to build out networks and work ourselves to the bone at odd hours to keep going any longer.

Being able to sit at home, in a house you own and watch Netflix is a sign of success in your example, not a failure.

Networks and expanding them is only relevant to those who require advancement, not those who have already made it.

Also having worked in Kloof Street for many years it’s really not all that. You have a weird obsession with repeatedly bringing that up as a measure of success.

In fact it’s more like hipster bum central.

Heh.

... and I was lazing away my days presenting academic papers at conferences all over the world which helped to secure a job in Silicon Valley. Not exactly call agent level networking, but perhaps one day, I’ll get there...

Agreed on your point - I no longer need to network. I no longer even need to work.

 

[Bassist]

I'm still quite happy living in SA and I wasn't addressing that at all.

I was questioning your measure of success seemingly relating to how well off people are by observation only.

Most of them I also know and what I have seen aligns with how they are and what they do.

Everything you alluded to in your first post ties in with having money available in some way, shape, or form to be able to do the things they so casually do from your observation.

Wrong. The following don't cost money:
Walking along Kloof street and visiting some friends who live closeby, and just chatting to them and meeting them up in a park, the sidewalk, or in a bar, and not even drinking anything.
Walking on an unspoilt beach.
Hiking up Table Mountain.
Jogging morning early on Seapoint Promenade.
Being invited by richer friends to go 4x4 at Atlantis.
Being friendly, innovative, charismatic, and helpful at your workplace and running around in a frokkie and helping everyone who needs help.
Voluntary work and smiling while doing it.
Cleaning up some beach.
I can go on... main thing is the attitude associated with those people. And that you cannot do those things in Europe with such an attitude, smiling, and with sun on your face.

 

[Bassist]

They could be killed

You could get killed anywhere in the world. You can also get hit by a car while crossing some high street in a top European city.

they could get sick

Anyone could get sick / COVID-19 for instance. Leaving SA will not make it better.

hyperinflation and/or economic collapse could destroy their wealth

Invest your money overseas.

they might find it impossible to find employment

Diversify and be willing to leave your comfort zone and do something you really like that bring in some money too.

they may be disallowed from entering other countries.

N/a if you decide to stay in SA.

All of this could apply to family members, children, etc. too.

If you do your job properly as a good parent you will manifest and nurture the same characteristic of the formula I have observed (see table in earlier post) to the rest of your family / children.

Apparently not resourceful or adaptable enough to see that this is hardly the ideal path to achieve such goals. Don't get me wrong - it's cool that they're motivated, but it's like you seem to have an 80's style cigarette ad view of them.

What would be the ideal?
Giving up? "Screw this! I'm leaving for Australia!" (throws newspaper down hard)

You can "live the life" in Kloof street, while barely subsisting, but it is particularly dangerous to barely subsist in South Africa. They may also have things "on the go", which is cool if properly directed, otherwise it's just talk, and it usually is just talk.

Sure, they stuff their faces in Kloof street but then get back to the grinder, work tremendously hard, and network like hell. They are able to do this because they apply the correct attitude and have loads of energy. See my table for the other characteristics.

It looks like you're putting these two quoted items together, and equating it to "success", when it's actually "dangerous with dubious outcome".

Sorry, not understanding why you think it is dangerous, when I clearly stated they have jobs - "work hard, play hard". Very far off from subsisting indeed.

 

[Bassist]

What is it with you and call centre agents?

Call centre agents are considered close to unskilled labour. They get paid one third to one half of what professional labour can get. So, much, much less.

Unless you are promoted, which the cream of the crop are. They possess the characteristics in my table.

Also, I'm going to be a real dick here and say what good does networking do if you are a call centre agent? You don't have any valuable skills. If you did, you wouldn't be a call centre agent.

You meet colleagues from all over the world which broadens your horisons, literally. When you travel overseas they could help you find jobs overseas, or stay over for cheap, or even expand local networks. Call Centres are a hustle of activity and I have seen total losers go work there and then make so many friends that would help them anytime, anywhere. This is how they then progressed in life.

It's still a **** job by itself but there are massive advantages to be gained from the types of diverse beings working there as well.

 

[Bassist]

You've just reminded of a story I read on this forum about a redheaded guy who pretended to be a lost American and used that to beg/scam for money.

I know him yes. Walking around CBD and scammed people. He even tried to scam me once too. Some story about being stuck in Cape Town and need money to leave or go home or something.

 

[Bassist]

Yes...because we don’t need to build out networks and work ourselves to the bone at odd hours to keep going any longer.

Being able to sit at home, in a house you own and watch Netflix is a sign of success in your example, not a failure.

It's passive entertainment and helping you zero with your career and interpersonal skills, which could become useful or even necessary if you lose your job.

Networks and expanding them is only relevant to those who require advancement, not those who have already made it.

So I take it you're happy then? And don't need to leave SA?

Also having worked in Kloof Street for many years it’s really not all that. You have a weird obsession with repeatedly bringing that up as a measure of success.

It is one albeit good example which epitomises the end of a hard-working but fruitful day of the type of successful person I am describing that wins in South Africa instead of moaning and threatening of leaving SA.

In fact it’s more like hipster bum central.

So what? It's a lifestyle that is present and shows that there are people that are able to enjoy themselves and be happy. If SA was so wasted then such environment would have disappeared long ago.

 

[Bassist]

Heh.

... and I was lazing away my days presenting academic papers at conferences all over the world which helped to secure a job in Silicon Valley. Not exactly call agent level networking, but perhaps one day, I’ll get there...

Agreed on your point - I no longer need to network. I no longer even need to work.

From what you've stated I would say that from my perspective someone like you have no reason to leave SA.

 

[cguy]

You could get killed anywhere in the world. You can also get hit by a car while crossing some high street in a top European city.

You could get killed tightrope walking across skyscrapers or riding in a train. If you had to do one of these every day, which one would you choose? Or are they really both equally dangerous - because neither has a zero probability of death?

Anyone could get sick / COVID-19 for instance. Leaving SA will not make it better.

Do you lick toilets? Do you walk around without a mask in a Covid ward? May as well if anyone could get sick... Also, leaving SA literally does make it better.

Invest your money overseas.

What money? They're call agents.

Diversify and be willing to leave your comfort zone and do something you really like that bring in some money too.

Congrats, you've solved the unemployment problem.

N/a if you decide to stay in SA.

Per the presupposition of your "horrible future" scenario, nobody decides to stay in a country undergoing economic collapse.

If you do your job properly as a good parent you will manifest and nurture the same characteristic of the formula I have observed (see table in earlier post) to the rest of your family / children.

You won't be able to nurture very much if Medicine gets nationalized, your child gets very sick and you are poor. What about your parents? Siblings? Extended family?

What would be the ideal?
Giving up? "Screw this! I'm leaving for Australia!" (throws newspaper down hard)

Studying something in demand, getting a professional job, perhaps going overseas somewhere based on a scare skills visa.

Sure, they stuff their faces in Kloof street but then get back to the grinder, work tremendously hard, and network like hell. They are able to do this because they apply the correct attitude and have loads of energy. See my table for the other characteristics.

I'm not sure why you think networking is the end goal. Success requires that and a whole lot more.

Sorry, not understanding why you think it is dangerous, when I clearly stated they have jobs - "work hard, play hard". Very far off from subsisting indeed.

You're the one who called them "bums". If these "bums" can only afford to share apartments with friends and live off a call agent's salary in a country as volatile as South Africa, they are subsisting.

 

[cguy]

From what you've stated I would say that from my perspective someone like you have no reason to leave SA.

? Why would I stay? I would do just fine for my self and my wife (in fact, I did), however, even at my decent income level, I wouldn't be able to comfortably stand a shock, such as having to take financial responsibility for, say my folks or other family members who hit health problems and/or tough times.