Are things really that bad in SA?

[Gozado]

Thanks for these replies about a budget. I'd like to work with and slightly reduce them, while being very clear that I'm not for a moment dismissing saving and financial planning for the future, which is definitely wise. But I'm taking it out of the list, here, because I'm trying to understand immediate monthly needs.

For the couple and the child (per month):
Rent: R10000
Food: R10000
Car payment: 2x R4000
Insurances: R2000 (total)
Child daycare / school: R1000
Medical aid: R6000 (for the whole family)
Entertainment / saving for holiday: R5000
TOTAL: R42000
Total Salary of both the man and woman combined: Needs to be at least R65,000 p/m. Anything about that, use as savings / gym / DSTV / Netflix / "cool activities"
....

For the 25- to 35-year-old adult child who's moving out of their parents' home for the first time:
Rent: R10000
Food: R5000
Car payment: R4000
Insurance: R1000
Medical aid: R2000
Entertainment / saving for holiday: R2500
TOTAL: R24500
Total Salary of the adult child: Needs to be at least R39,000* p/m. Anything about that, use as savings, or to pay off study debt, or gym / DSTV / Netflix / "cool activities"
...

These two numbers seem very very off.

Groceries living a good life could happily be half of that for 2 1/2 people unless they are eating out once a week or only shopping at Woolworths.

On the flipside, childcare is NOT going to be R1000 a month, at least not at any place where you'd actually be happy leaving your child, especially if you seemingly otherwise make enough money to afford better.

The folliwing is substituting SauRoNZA's figures into Bassist's list, estimating a part-time domestic worker for child-care, and excluding savings or entertainment:
For the couple and the child (per month):
Rent: R10000
Food: R5000
Car payment: 2x R4000
Insurances: R2000 (total)
Child daycare / school: R4000
Medical aid: R6000 (for the whole family)
New TOTAL: R35000
Total Salary of both the man and woman combined: Needs to be at least R35,000 p/m. (with no savings, no gym / DSTV / Netflix / "cool activities").

For the 25- to 35-year-old adult child who's moving out of their parents' home for the first time:
Rent: R10000
Food: R2500
Car payment: R4000
Insurance: R1000
Medical aid: R2000
TOTAL: R19500
Total Salary of the adult child: Needs to be at least R19,500* p/m. (no savings, nor paying off study debt, no gym / DSTV / Netflix / "cool activities")

The two items which stand out, as open to being reduced, are accommodation and car payment. (Where's petrol? Bassist, did you perhaps mean that included in your initial food/household running costs? That would make sense, with electricity and clothing, in there, too.).

As soon as the couple takes in a tenant, or rents only a garden cottage, or the single adult child lives in a shared flat, that rent figure can become much less.

And for anyone blessed to live near where they work, or who knows how to use the public transport, or who can be part of a car-pool, so as not to need a car per person, or who saved on accommodation for long enough to not have any car payment because they bought their car cash... well, that can lower the budget considerably, too.

In fact, sharing accommodation and making a plan for transport (and having no medical insurance) is how the bulk of the population of South Africa manages to get by, at all.

Would anyone else venture further corrections, please?

 

[Gozado]

Somerset West is full of Germans and Brits who did exactly that.

It occurred to me that this particular group of immigrants typically have no rent costs, and no mortgage costs, since they tend to buy property cash, which they might not have been able to afford (or not on such a fortunate scale) with the same capital, in their countries of origin. Their rates are their only accommodation cost.

This is sometimes also true of South Africans who have worked abroad for some years, and return.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Thanks for these replies about a budget. I'd like to work with and slightly reduce them, while being very clear that I'm not for a moment dismissing saving and financial planning for the future, which is definitely wise. But I'm taking it out of the list, here, because I'm trying to understand immediate monthly needs.




The folliwing is substituting SauRoNZA's figures into Bassist's list, estimating a part-time domestic worker for child-care, and excluding savings or entertainment:
For the couple and the child (per month):
Rent: R10000
Food: R5000
Car payment: 2x R4000
Insurances: R2000 (total)
Child daycare / school: R4000
Medical aid: R6000 (for the whole family)
New TOTAL: R35000
Total Salary of both the man and woman combined: Needs to be at least R35,000 p/m. (with no savings, no gym / DSTV / Netflix / "cool activities").

For the 25- to 35-year-old adult child who's moving out of their parents' home for the first time:
Rent: R10000
Food: R2500
Car payment: R4000
Insurance: R1000
Medical aid: R2000
TOTAL: R19500
Total Salary of the adult child: Needs to be at least R19,500* p/m. (no savings, nor paying off study debt, no gym / DSTV / Netflix / "cool activities")

The two items which stand out, as open to being reduced, are accommodation and car payment. (Where's petrol? Bassist, did you perhaps mean that included in your initial food/household running costs? That would make sense, with electricity and clothing, in there, too.).

As soon as the couple takes in a tenant, or rents only a garden cottage, or the single adult child lives in a shared flat, that rent figure can become much less.

And for anyone blessed to live near where they work, or who knows how to use the public transport, or who can be part of a car-pool, so as not to need a car per person, or who saved on accommodation for long enough to not have any car payment because they bought their car cash... well, that can lower the budget considerably, too.

In fact, sharing accommodation and making a plan for transport (and having no medical insurance) is how the bulk of the population of South Africa manages to get by, at all.

Would anyone else venture further corrections, please?

You’ve completely forgotten tax for simply used net salary instead of gross without indicating such which means your salary figures don’t work.

But yes you don’t necessarily need two cars and most certainly don’t need to have them financed at that level. Cheaper cars also means cheaper insurance.

Also for R10,000 a month in rent I hope you are
Owning the property at the end of it all and not simply renting.

Medical Aid is also too inflated in that budget and can be much less especially at the coast.

Missing things that obviously come to mind but are not worthy.

Life insurance.
RA/Pension/Investment
Internet
Electricity
Petrol
Cellphones
Armed Response (often insurance requirement)

 

[SauRoNZA]

It occurred to me that this particular group of immigrants typically have no rent costs, and no mortgage costs, since they tend to buy property cash, which they might not have been able to afford (or not on such a fortunate scale) with the same capital, in their countries of origin. Their rates are their only accommodation cost.

This is sometimes also true of South Africans who have worked abroad for some years, and return.

Accurate assumption as every single one of them I know have multiple paid for properties since they can’t get home loans easily.

Part of the reasons they are here.

 

[cguy]

It occurred to me that this particular group of immigrants typically have no rent costs, and no mortgage costs, since they tend to buy property cash, which they might not have been able to afford (or not on such a fortunate scale) with the same capital, in their countries of origin. Their rates are their only accommodation cost.

This is sometimes also true of South Africans who have worked abroad for some years, and return.

True. On top of that, since they mostly have the right to return overseas, they don't have to save a reasonably liquid 350k+ Euro's or some such for a golden visa as an emergency option. They also don't have to worry that much about family or friends who don't have access to good healthcare. Depending on their situation, they may even be entitled to a pension that goes quite far in SA.

 

[The Voice]

True. On top of that, since they mostly have the right to return overseas, they don't have to save a reasonably liquid 350k+ Euro's or some such for a golden visa as an emergency option. They also don't have to worry that much about family or friends who don't have access to good healthcare. Depending on their situation, they may even be entitled to a pension that goes quite far in SA.

Back when I lived there it was how most of them ended up there: their pensions. It's not worth much over here in the UK, but that changes drastically as soon as they land in SA and the exchange rate kicks in. Suddenly, they had lives they'd only dreamt of. And, of course, their passports ensured they still had a get-out-of-jail-free card in case it ever went to ****.

 

[cguy]

Back when I lived there it was how most of them ended up there: their pensions. It's not worth much over here in the UK, but that changes drastically as soon as they land in SA and the exchange rate kicks in. Suddenly, they had lives they'd only dreamt of. And, of course, their passports ensured they still had a get-out-of-jail-free card in case it ever went to ****.

Yup, it’s pretty sweet. Checking out what my wife and I would get for social security, it looks like R50k/m to R100k/m, depending on when we decide to start drawing it (age 62 for lower, age 70 for upper). This is in today’s money.

 

[Gozado]

Yup, it’s pretty sweet. Checking out what my wife and I would get for social security, it looks like R50k/m to R100k/m, depending on when we decide to start drawing it (age 62 for lower, age 70 for upper). This is in today’s money.

And with that amount, could you live comfortably where where you are now? Or might you choose to (or have to) move back to South Africa?

 

[Mrcricket]

I get bombarded by messages from friends on Whatsapp and FB, just showing how nice lifestyles they are living. Photos galore.

They are not necessarily rich. And most don't live in The Boord or Constantia. But they have struck some formula for being successful in SA. It has a lot to do with networking, the right attitude, and some luck.

They have jobs they can go to and evenings they chill in Kloof street, barefoot, in frokkies, bearded, and drive hip cars. They have friends with holiday homes and they get the best women. They have qualifications (or not) and can travel to Europe. It seems they always get help somewhere from someone, especially good leads for business, specials, deals, or taking care of their dog while they jet around the world.

They live the best lifestyle in SA, in Europe they would not have been able to afford such a lifestyle.

Discuss. What is their secret formula?

There is no clear-cut answer to this.

In truth, some people in SA have it better than rich Americans in America. On the other hand, some have it similar to poor people in Zimbabwe or India.

In general, most South African's have it bad but I once chatted to a dual British/SA national and will never forget when he said, "If you have money, SA is better than the UK".

 

[cguy]

And with that amount, could you live comfortably where where you are now? Or might you choose to (or have to) move back to South Africa?

For the general case of someone with nothing else, a person could certainly get by on it, but it wouldn’t be comfortable. If I was in such a situation, I would consider either moving to a cheaper US area or back to SA. SA would definitely provide a better standard of living on this amount, but it depends on the state of the country at the time (and for that matter the relative state of the US too).

For the average middle class American, at retirement age, they’ve typically paid off a house, and typically have anywhere from $200k-400k in their 401k retirement funds (I have about $600k in mine, just putting in the max allowance plus matching for about 10 years now). In this case, the payments are mostly just for insurances and disposable income. SA is certainly an option for a much higher standard of living, but at this point probably not worth it for quality of life (safety, services, amenities, etc.).

For me, it’s irrelevant - I can afford to live anywhere, so would probably move around Europe and the US and go wherever the healthcare is best once I’m too old to travel.

 

[cguy]

There is no clear-cut answer to this.

In truth, some people in SA have it better than rich Americans in America. On the other hand, some have it similar to poor people in Zimbabwe or India.

In general, most South African's have it bad but I once chatted to a dual British/SA national and will never forget when he said, "If you have money, SA is better than the UK".

The Brits are obsessed with warm weather, so that last bit make sense. The place of choice seems to be leaning more to Lisbon these days though. They also often have a naive perspective on violent crime (it’s something that happens to other people).

 

[Bassist]

A little surprised that I have to explain, but it's an analogy illustrating your logical fallacy (two non-zero probabilities are treated equally by virtue of being non-zero, despite them being very different). The subjects being somewhere safer and somewhere less safe - you have to choose one.

Then I'll reserve my response to this for later and for now, get back to the point of safety in Cape Town.
Most of the murders in Cape Town occur in the Cape Flats. So how can you be murdered if you just make sure you never go there?
Break-ins happen less in security complexes. So move into one. And there are some that are not expensive. I lived in a townhouse in "dripping in wealth and privilege" Hout Bay, which cost R10000 p/m.

Not talking about colds here...

Then let's pick suicide, shall we? I wonder if Europe or SA's suicide rate is the highest? Shall we compare?

R2000/m isn't going to touch sides if the s hits the f.

It will be at least enough, over some years, to pay for emigration, should you really want to leave the country. In the meantime you can still enjoy what SA has to offer.

Yes - not sure how that is relevant though?

If you still have a job that means there is still some form of economy that provides you with a salary.

"Medicine" refers to the practice of medicine, not just pharmaceuticals. E.g., proposed NHI.

No that's Health Care. But we're splitting hairs here over terminology. It seems you like to hammer on that, likely in an attempt to discredit whatever I am writing. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and leave it there.

Literally none of the above is true for me and many others, except perhaps for the new job part.

Your emigration costs were not expensive?
You adapted quickly? I reckon you had tons of friends already there.
You don't miss your family and home culture? Maybe you had no family to leave behind in SA. Fair enough, but most people actually do have family (usually elderly parents) they leave behind in SA. You will not see them grow old and enjoy their last years with them. And they will see your grandchildren (if any) seldom. Sad.
Apartment/house - you mean to say the accomodation you got overseas was 100% EXACTLY the same (size and style) as you had in SA?

Like "does some form of active sport", "physically attractive" and "young" (your post #90) . Networking isn't a characteristic - ability to network is a characteristic.

Again splitting hairs over terminology. But I'll bite:
ability to network is a skill. Being open and charismatic are characteristics pertaining to the skill of being able to network.

It's the only relevant concrete skill that you've mentioned, the rest is all BS that can be folded into "personable",

They are related to each other and for sure one can pick a word to classify them all more or less, but I list them out separately to show the distinctions between each of them and be able to differentiate whether one needs money or lily pond upbringings for each of them (and there are some that could require those). Hence fleshing them out.

and you have somehow left out the things that actually matter the most like "being highly competent and skilled".

That goes without saying for any type of success criteria. I wanted to specifically list the ones that are maybe slightly less obvious, and specifically pertinent to the SA environment.

"Good" decisions in life include softening/minimizing worst case scenarios. Ideally they don't happen, but if they do one needs to be prepared.

No, you are saying that one needs money to be prepared and anything else won't help. This is false. Look again at the example I described. The guys networked and made friends with their call centre buddies or flat buddies so they had contacts and leads for next jobs/apartments. THIS DOES NOT COST ANY MONEY. Do you get that?

Money will help you in SA but it is possible to be successful without being rich. I get the impression you are rich and think you can only accomplish anything with money, hence your resistance to support any characteristics I put forth that involve little or no expenditure or recourse to own funds & fortunes.

What if they didn't? Who would voluntarily rely on friends as a safety net? Are their friends going to pay for their private cancer treatment too? Or put up their out of money parents or grandparents? It's not enough to subsist, or to just have a network.

Depends what it is what you think might likely go wrong with you. If I think I'd be hit with cancer (family history) I'd eat healthier / don't smoke. Out of job soon: make friends and network. Car might break: make friends with a mechanic. Computer crash, lose all data: back it up or find a nerd friend who can help you back it up. See, there are ways and means to reduce any sort of risk, and it will not cost an arm and a leg, contrary to what you think.
I've seen cases where friends pool money together to pay for legal battles of some friend who got into problems, or the RAF, doctors... all to varying amounts of success but it was better than nothing. And if nothing else, just the moral support of friends trying to help financially, already goes a long way. THIS WILL NOT WORK IN EUROPE (no-one cares, but granted, the social systems there will probably take care of you in any event, in their nice typical sterile way).

As I said, I do think that having money will help you in SA, in case things go wrong with you specifically, but in the meantime there are people who persist with accomplishing success and they do it in ways that don't always involve heaps of money.

 

[ponder]

SA is schite end of story and don't villainize those that leave! It's fashionable to hate the rich but your sad life is not their doing and they don't owe you jack!

A good friend had enough and she moved to Oz with her two kids. In the process of shutting down businesses, many people unfortunately, lost their jobs.
You would never consider this person wealthy at first glance but she initially took out close to a billion rand! She still has major property assets she's sitting on that will get liquidated when it's right.

 

[cguy]

Then I'll reserve my response to this for later and for now, get back to the point of safety in Cape Town.
Most of the murders in Cape Town occur in the Cape Flats. So how can you be murdered if you just make sure you never go there?
Break-ins happen less in security complexes. So move into one. And there are some that are not expensive. I lived in a townhouse in "dripping in wealth and privilege" Hout Bay, which cost R10000 p/m.

Murders aren't limited the Cape Flats. I have a family member who lived in a house in Camps Bay - didn't stop her from getting stabbed to death during a break in.

Then let's pick suicide, shall we? I wonder if Europe or SA's suicide rate is the highest? Shall we compare?

South Africa's is indeed higher. Still a pointless and disingenuous argument though - we're talking about all serious illnesses, not just one way down on the list or the sniffles.

It will be at least enough, over some years, to pay for emigration, should you really want to leave the country. In the meantime you can still enjoy what SA has to offer.

No, it won't be.

If you still have a job that means there is still some form of economy that provides you with a salary.

How would one person living in another country imply that under a hypothetical negative economic disaster in South Africa there is still some form of economy, and when did "some form of economy" become the standard to strive for?

No that's Health Care. But we're splitting hairs here over terminology. It seems you like to hammer on that, likely in an attempt to discredit whatever I am writing. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and leave it there.

"med.i.cine
noun

1. 1.
   the science or practice of the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease (in technical use often taken to exclude surgery)."

I realize that Medicine by itself is somewhat ambiguous, but when we're talking about nationalizing medicine/health-care in the context of a country that is currently nationalizing medicine/health-care, it really shouldn't be.

Your emigration costs were not expensive?

No, my employer paid for everything including visas, flights, moving, corporate housing, and a stipend/expenses for the first few months.

You adapted quickly? I reckon you had tons of friends already there.

No friends at all when we moved, but my wife and I adapted quickly.

You don't miss your family and home culture? Maybe you had no family to leave behind in SA. Fair enough, but most people actually do have family (usually elderly parents) they leave behind in SA. You will not see them grow old and enjoy their last years with them. And they will see your grandchildren (if any) seldom. Sad.

I don't particularly miss any home culture. Outside of pandemics, I see my family regularly: either I go there, they come here, or we meet in Europe. I talk to them almost every day too, and I've helped them live a life free of financial worries.

Apartment/house - you mean to say the accomodation you got overseas was 100% EXACTLY the same (size and style) as you had in SA?

My first flat was smaller than my SA house, but a decent size (2bed, 2bath). My current city flat is much bigger than my house in SA was, and my country house is at a totally different scale.

No, you are saying that one needs money to be prepared and anything else won't help. This is false. Look again at the example I described. The guys networked and made friends with their call centre buddies or flat buddies so they had contacts and leads for next jobs/apartments. THIS DOES NOT COST ANY MONEY. Do you get that?

Money will help you in SA but it is possible to be successful without being rich. I get the impression you are rich and think you can only accomplish anything with money, hence your resistance to support any characteristics I put forth that involve little or no expenditure or recourse to own funds & fortunes.

Success is subjective - a lot of things can be accomplished without money - art, music, code, research, teaching, healing, etc. if one defines success as doing very well in one of these callings, well, then they are successful.

Many define success as their ability to provide for their families, help friends, contribute to causes, and be happy (usually this comes from achieving the prior items). Money is an incredibly important tool for weathering shocks: financial, health, family crises, friends in need, etc., or making a difference via contributing to charities or funding ventures. I am rich now by most definitions, but I certainly wasn't always.

If your definition of success means hanging out in Kloof Street and becoming dependent on people you've "glammed" when things go pear shaped - then sure, you're successful, but as others have said it's a pretty damn low bar.

... If I think I'd be hit with cancer (family history) I'd eat healthier / don't smoke. ... See, there are ways and means to reduce any sort of risk, and it will not cost an arm and a leg, contrary to what you think.

Lol - let me know how that works out for you.

 

[Nirv]

Quite honestly no need to even go further than this paragraph.

Anyone living in Hout Bay is dripping in wealth and privilege.

He was talking about Hangberg, which is the "coloured" fishing village section close to the harbour. Between that, central Hout Bay and Imizamu Yetu there's a lot of wealth disparity across the bay.

"Republic of Hout Bay" - really says it all.

Does that sign still exist?

It still existed when I moved away from the area end 2018.

 

[SauRoNZA]

He was talking about Hangberg, which is the "coloured" fishing village section close to the harbour. Between that, central Hout Bay and Imizamu Yetu there's a lot of wealth disparity across the bay. It still existed when I moved away from the area end 2018.

Aah yes.

The disparity is certainly there.

 

[Gozado]

Many South Africans have left already. Some people are specifically working towards getting out of S.A. and investing their money abroad, working on their applications for visas or citizenships, or furthering their skill set so as to find an employer abroad who will open the doors. There's lots written about, and by, them.

Others know that they cannot leave (too old, too ill, too few qualifications that are desirable abroad, too little money, no chance of another nationality or ancestral visa, poor scholastic abilities or language skills) or that they don't want to leave (born and bred here, as were the previous generations, can't bear to be apart from family, like what the have in S.A. now, see opportunities).

Perhaps this is another way of asking your question, Bassist: "For anyone who is not leaving South Africa (for whatever reason at all), what do you, personally, or those around you, do to make your life in S.A. work out well?" For example:

• What do you think is essential and your first focus?
• What makes life more bearable, safer?
• How do you achieve that?
• What do you do to prevent things going wrong?
• And what do you do if things do go wrong?
• What makes your life most enjoyable?
• What's missing from your life? Do you suffer from that?
• Might you be able to change the negative aspects and turn things around, for yourself and those nearest to you? How?
• Are you connected to others who help you, or whom you help, with effort or money?

I'd be interested in replies about efforts to be "successful" in such aspects of life, specifically in South Africa, specifically by those who are staying.

 

[Rhein]

A month in South Africa: The road to nowhere

We spent a month in South Africa and found the country in deep depression. Despite macro challenges, one local company keeps excelling.

www.terranovaca.com

Since this is a very important topic have a good look at this report and explore terranovaca website.
A team spends thirty day in various developing countries.
It is a long read but it deserves to be read.
When you have the time read their research on the other countries.

 

[Bassist]

Aah yes.

The disparity is certainly there.

Your words were: "Anyone living in Hout Bay is dripping in wealth and privilege."

And I pointed out to Hangberg, which proves your statement false.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Your words were: "Anyone living in Hout Bay is dripping in wealth and privilege."

And I pointed out to Hangberg, which proves your statement false.

Certainly, at the same time those people also don’t fall under any of the criteria of success you’ve mentioned otherwise so I’m not really seeing what the point was.