Are things really that bad in SA?

How is not having kids selfish?
Is being selfish dependent on answer to just one question - "Do you have kid"? Are there no other compounding variables you can factor in?

A rich person could have 2 kids and able to sponsor 100 kids - is he selfish? You could argue he could have no kids (and be completely selfless ?) and sponsor 102 kids instead.

A poor person could have 2 kids and not able to sponsor any kids but able to support kids - is person selfish? and so on..

Of course, you could always put a "earth" as a compounding variable and state that more is not good and put enormous value on this variable and stress that having kids is burden on earth and hence it is selfish.

It is complicated I think.
 
Is being selfish dependent on answer to just one question - "Do you have kid"? Are there no other compounding variables you can factor in?

A rich person could have 2 kids and able to sponsor 100 kids - is he selfish? You could argue he could have no kids (and be completely selfless ?) and sponsor 102 kids instead.

A poor person could have 2 kids and not able to sponsor any kids but able to support kids - is person selfish? and so on..

Of course, you could always put a "earth" as a compounding variable and state that more is not good and put enormous value on this variable and stress that having kids is burden on earth and hence it is selfish.

It is complicated I think.

I go for that. It is selfish to over burden the planet with more people. If you really want a kid, have 1 and stop. We don't need 2.5 kids each...

And having no kids is not selfish, which is what I was trying to argue.
 
No point in bemoaning others success. We've not all started at the same level. However most of us live within 10km? range of a township. a lot of people I see are living in absolute poverty.

You don't realise that some people have nothing until you see the nothing they have. I've seen wire used as the only cooking/eating utensil.
The point is to figure out how they are successful, what is the formula they use, and then ask yourself if you have really done absolutely all you can do follow suit, before jumping ship and leaving SA.

To summarize:
1) How are these people successful
2) Try really hard to follow the same success formula
If above fails, leave SA.
 
Again, what makes you think they’re successful? Or rather, what is your definition of success?

This is such a strange topic. Do you want to come to SA and live like these people?
 
Anyway, interesting subject Bassist. Do you live in SA? Have you ever lived in SA?

I lived in SA for a long time before emigrating to the UK at the beginning of 2019, and yeah, the lifestyle is great.

It is a combination of a few things. The first is that the climate is fantastic. When you live in the UK, and you have days where the maximum temperature is 20 degrees in the height of summer, you appreciate how good you had it in SA.

That good weather has an effect on your mood and happiness - you always want to do something.

Then there is the sheer amount of space. Houses are huge, flats are huge, gardens are huge, everything is huge. Space quite literally for Africa.

The important part of this is that if you are earning a middle class income or above in SA, you can afford a house or flat that by UK standards would be amazing. Lots of professionals in London have to compromise - it isn't unusual to have people in their 30s sharing because they can't afford to live alone. So, it is much cheaper to get a nice place to live in SA. This affects your day to day life - it has a huge impact.

I have to sacrifice a lot of my income to have a nice place to live in, and even then I am renting and not buying. It is kak expensive over here.

Then there is the natural beauty of SA - lots of beautiful national parks and open spaces. Again, goes back to climate and open space - just so much to do, so much beauty to be had.

The last point is that, if you are born in SA, you tend to have strong social networks there. This gives you a lot of people that you can interact with and bond with. If you emigrate, you no longer have those networks, and it can take a long time to build networks up again. You sacrifice on your social life big time. This relates to the parts about climate and open space - you have people you like spending time with in places where you like being.

As to whether people live on credit and drive cars they can't really afford - yes but that isn't limited to SA. That happens in the UK too. People spend absurd amounts of money renting tiny little rooms in the heart of the city instead of paying less and living further away. It is just a modern thing - people do it. It doesn't mean that SA is fake or that people are fake or that anyone who says they are happy in SA is fake.

For every yuppie driving a GTI, there are ten Kobus's, William's, Sipho's and Rajiv's who just like taking their family to the dam on a weekend and having a braai next to the water. That's all it takes to have a good time in SA - a braai and a beer. When your standard for happiness is as low as that, you tend to be happy a lot.

Now, the downsides, the reason I moved away, is the ANC government and the future of the country. If I'm right, being able to afford beers and braais is going to get a lot more difficult. Finding roads that you can drive on to get to the dam is going to be a lot more difficult. Finding a dam that isn't polluted with sewage is going to be impossible.

Even worse than that, if I ever had children in SA, I don't know what kind of education they could get. I don't know what would happen if my wife went into labour - would NHI force us to wait in a queue for 2 months before she can give birth? If my child was premature, could they get the care they needed?

So that's the problem. Yes, the lifestyle is amazing. I will never deny that. But there are still problems.
 
To all accounts they might be doing well, but probably the % of people doing well vs those not really vs those starving will frighten you.
Irrelevant. I would want to be part of that small % of people who do well, and not the other part. Would you not be either?
 
They're one of the rapidly diminishing percentage in SA who obviously have stable jobs and who haven't (presumably) dug themselves into horrendous debt. Yes, SA is that bad for the majority of its population. Look beyond Kloof Street, IG and FB.
But what does that matter? Have you tried to be part of the rapidly diminishing percentage in SA who obviously have stable jobs? Why would you want to not be part of the cream of the crop? Why point out statistics of all the poor, who you do not want to be part of?
 
Again, what makes you think they’re successful? Or rather, what is your definition of success?

This is such a strange topic. Do you want to come to SA and live like these people?
Definition of success if being happy with being accomplished with your own goals and making those close to you happy as well. These people are living like paradise in SA.

I've left SA but want to come back, but first want to figure out their secret formula. So to be sure "I get it" before I make the jump back.
 
so the appearance of everything is awesome gains attention, who wouldve thought that.

you could ask people to rather post their problems.
 
I go for that. It is selfish to over burden the planet with more people. If you really want a kid, have 1 and stop. We don't need 2.5 kids each...

And having no kids is not selfish, which is what I was trying to argue.
What if said kid becomes the next Jeff Bezos or fortune 500 and employs and makes people's livelihoods better?
 
Definition of success if being happy with being accomplished with your own goals and making those close to you happy as well. These people are living like paradise in SA.

I've left SA but want to come back, but first want to figure out their secret formula. So to be sure "I get it" before I make the jump back.
Which country you're @ now?
 
So that's the problem. Yes, the lifestyle is amazing. I will never deny that. But there are still problems.

Grass is greener due to all the Sh*t in it.

same thing when we went to Toronto, yes its safe, you wont get mugged.
and yes, their aren't Insane taxis everywhere, actual police doing their jobs properly.

but then one sees how miserable people are in Canada, literally lost the will to live.
cold weather and snow doesn't help a bit.

I suppose in the long run, its all about compromises as @Ancalagon says, you cant have everything in the world.
either you have a "functioning" government, or you have space and "relative" freedom in SA
 
But what does that matter? Have you tried to be part of the rapidly diminishing percentage in SA who obviously have stable jobs? Why would you want to not be part of the cream of the crop? Why point out statistics of all the poor, who you do not want to be part of?

So you're saying that as long as you're part of what you determine to be "the cream of the crop", things aren't actually aren't that bad in SA for you? If things are good for you and your friends, it doesn't mean they aren't generally bad in SA? Reword your question to "Who cares if things are bad in SA as long as I'm fine" then.
 
Anyway, interesting subject Bassist. Do you live in SA? Have you ever lived in SA?

I lived in SA for a long time before emigrating to the UK at the beginning of 2019, and yeah, the lifestyle is great.

It is a combination of a few things. The first is that the climate is fantastic. When you live in the UK, and you have days where the maximum temperature is 20 degrees in the height of summer, you appreciate how good you had it in SA.

That good weather has an effect on your mood and happiness - you always want to do something.

Then there is the sheer amount of space. Houses are huge, flats are huge, gardens are huge, everything is huge. Space quite literally for Africa.

The important part of this is that if you are earning a middle class income or above in SA, you can afford a house or flat that by UK standards would be amazing. Lots of professionals in London have to compromise - it isn't unusual to have people in their 30s sharing because they can't afford to live alone. So, it is much cheaper to get a nice place to live in SA. This affects your day to day life - it has a huge impact.

I have to sacrifice a lot of my income to have a nice place to live in, and even then I am renting and not buying. It is kak expensive over here.

Then there is the natural beauty of SA - lots of beautiful national parks and open spaces. Again, goes back to climate and open space - just so much to do, so much beauty to be had.

The last point is that, if you are born in SA, you tend to have strong social networks there. This gives you a lot of people that you can interact with and bond with. If you emigrate, you no longer have those networks, and it can take a long time to build networks up again. You sacrifice on your social life big time. This relates to the parts about climate and open space - you have people you like spending time with in places where you like being.

As to whether people live on credit and drive cars they can't really afford - yes but that isn't limited to SA. That happens in the UK too. People spend absurd amounts of money renting tiny little rooms in the heart of the city instead of paying less and living further away. It is just a modern thing - people do it. It doesn't mean that SA is fake or that people are fake or that anyone who says they are happy in SA is fake.

For every yuppie driving a GTI, there are ten Kobus's, William's, Sipho's and Rajiv's who just like taking their family to the dam on a weekend and having a braai next to the water. That's all it takes to have a good time in SA - a braai and a beer. When your standard for happiness is as low as that, you tend to be happy a lot.

Now, the downsides, the reason I moved away, is the ANC government and the future of the country. If I'm right, being able to afford beers and braais is going to get a lot more difficult. Finding roads that you can drive on to get to the dam is going to be a lot more difficult. Finding a dam that isn't polluted with sewage is going to be impossible.

Even worse than that, if I ever had children in SA, I don't know what kind of education they could get. I don't know what would happen if my wife went into labour - would NHI force us to wait in a queue for 2 months before she can give birth? If my child was premature, could they get the care they needed?

So that's the problem. Yes, the lifestyle is amazing. I will never deny that. But there are still problems.
Some good points to which I agree. Yeah I lived in SA but moved out and am experiencing exactly the challenges you mention, with living overseas away from SA. You're pressed for space, lower living standards in terms of luxury and nature, and you pretty much have to start from scratch in terms of friends, networks and employment. No-one cares what car you drive (or what you drove in SA), or whatever accomplishments you achieved in some wasted African country like SA.

The shenanigans with the ANC government is irrelevant until it directly affects YOU. That means they do stuff (or DON'T do anything) which causes you to lose your job, or your life to become unaffordable, or you or your family gets attacked or robbed. In this sense, I have so many contacts in SA to who this has never happened before, and they have set themselves up in such a way that it will take a LOT of screw-ups from the government before they eventually might be remotely affected. How do they do this? From what I can tell:
1) They have jobs in an industry where there will always be good opportunities, like maybe IT, in SA.
2) Even if (1) above fails, they are diverse enough to do something else, like making money from a side hobby they've always had, or joining a business partnership from a friend or family member.
3) They know how to save, so that when inflation hits harder, or the government starts printing money, they have a cushion, or they have already invested in foreign assets or currencies. They even have friends in Europe or US who keep money for them there. They also have friends or contacts where they can buy stuff cheaper, like friends with home gardens (vegetables), building materials, etc.
4) They apply common sense in terms of safety. And they live in safe areas, or in an area where there are good neighbourhood watches. When they go out they hang around in places where it is relatively safe. When travelling for weekends away, they travel in car groups (e.g. 2 families in 2 cars) so if one car breaks down, the other can help. They even know friends in every town they drive through which will come help when called upon! Because the police is unreliable/useless. Long distance they don't drive through the night, so they stay over in towns along the way, at friends' places for free.

As for education, they go to normal schools (not private). For university, they go overseas and study overseas because they worked at uncle Koos's car garage while they were young so they could save to go overseas and overseas while studying they also work because some friend or family member got them a contact for a side job close to the particular university overseas where they will be staying. All in all, they are able to fund their overseas study, and maybe even get a job there. Or return to SA and step into a nice job at some company because a friend's friend got them a nice opportunity there.

What have all of us done to promote a life like above for us or our children?
Have you done enough to foster friendships and make the right picks for friends, and contacts, that are so crucial in the above scenarios I have sketched?
If others could, why could you or me not also?
BEFORE deciding to leave SA?
 
So you're saying that as long as you're part of what you determine to be "the cream of the crop", things aren't actually aren't that bad in SA for you? If things are good for you and your friends, it doesn't mean they aren't generally bad in SA? Reword your question to "Who cares if things are bad in SA as long as I'm fine" then.
Exactly. But isn't that the point of survival?
 
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