Article: No fracking for now

daveza said:
This is the area which Shell wants to explore for fracking - ( the yellow bit )

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That is a vast and sparsely populated area where most of the inhabitants and livestock rely solely on rain and borehole water.

As it is we have insufficient sustainable fresh water in the country - without having to divert some to this huge area.

Where the million and millions of litres required to frack this expanse of land is to come from I have yet to hear.

The damage to roads, the industrial villages that will be created can all be fixed or removed.

But fresh clean water is life - call it an emotional point if you must ;)
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I'm quite sure that Shell will not be relying on rainwater and boreholes for their needs. Clearly Shell's solution to ensuring steady supply is the same solution for the few inhabitants of the area too. I can't be sure. My gripe this entire time though has been about those calling for its outright banning though. I don't see how resolving a supply issue and at the same time coupling it with necessary infrastructure development could ever be a bad thing. The reason you just provided is no reason to ban it - it's reason to find solutions imo.

Like I said earlier, they are important questions to ask, and I sincerely hope that after the studies are completed and plans approved, that you get your answer...
 
DJ... said:
My gripe this entire time though has been about those calling for its outright banning though.
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Ok then how about a new moratorium? Until the operators can guarantee that there will be no environmental disasters and that when they are finished they will return the pads to their original state. Also that they will bring in their own water and will repair any damage to road infrastructure.

Furthermore let them explain what they do when the well is closed after production ends- the actual below ground well. The rate of failure of these old wells tends to 100% given enough time so penalties should have no time limits. Oh and lets talk about actual penalties should there be any adverse effects. $50 billion retainer per company should suffice.
 
I have no issues with a moratorium until concrete, approved, safe plans are in place. I do however take issue with treating them any differently to any other business by demanding a cash-flow hampering, up-front collateral payment. I suspect that the lifting of a moratorium was a visible show of good faith by the government and possibly a research project/PR insight on public perception by stirring the pot again.

I for one hope it happens. Private investment of this magnitude needs to be welcomed and encouraged, and has the potential to really and truly lift an economy, on both a local and national front. Of course I don't approve of haphazardly moving forward with it, but I am willing to accept that the project comes with inherent risks that need to be safeguarded against. I suppose that is my argument in a nutshell...
 
Freshy-ZN said:
Also that they will bring in their own water and will repair any damage to road infrastructure.
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Which they would get from .... ?

Oh and lets talk about actual penalties should there be any adverse effects. $50 billion retainer per company should suffice.
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Agreed.

Money can't buy fresh water but it would make them think about the cost of taking short cuts.

And if they are so sure of their facts, what's the risk.
 
daveza said:
Which they would get from .... ?



Agreed.

Money can't buy fresh water but it would make them think about the cost of taking short cuts.

And if they are so sure of their facts, what's the risk.
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Well they talked about building their own desalination plants and pumping it to sites.

And the penalties have to be so severe that there could never be incentive to take short cuts.
 
daveza said:
That's a hell of a way to transport water but if they leave the desalination plants then that's a plus.
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Unlikely they'll fit on a plane. :p

And they're paid for with private, international money. There's the PPP benefit I was referring to earlier...
 
daveza said:
That's a hell of a way to transport water but if they leave the desalination plants then that's a plus.
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Not sure how far they would need but Ive been to Trekkopje in Namibia. Its a uranium mine in the middle of the desert with a rather sizeable water requirement. They pump it from the Atlantic ocean over 70kms away and I think the pipe continues further to other mines.
 
There was an interesting call-in to 702 this morning from one of the farmers who was sponsored to go over to the states to take a look at how fracking had affected land and farming in Pennsylvania. They were based at Cornell University and got to see both sides of the story first hand.
His impression was that exploration companies are not being entirely honest about the effects and risks of fracking and he found it difficult to reconcile what they are telling us with what he actually experienced visiting areas where fracking has been implemented. Anyway, would be interested to see an actual report , rather than just the anecdotal comments from one of the team
 
Well as long as they sent an expert...:rolleyes:

That aside, the post is a bit vague. What exactly did he see and experience that differed from the risk assessments and action plans specific to the areas that he visited?
 
:)
Supposedly Cornell University is putting together a study and decided to include farmers from around the world as participants. Official findings haven't been released as far as I can tell hence my comment [edit - specifically the vetinary medicine faculty at Cornell, which would explain the inclusion of farmers in the study group]
Anyway, would be interested to see an actual report , rather than just the anecdotal comments from one of the team
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Basically what he said was that they visited farming areas that had been polluted to such an extent that no farming was possible in the area any longer. According to this dude, claims that there are no cases of environmental damage are false and that farming (at least in the areas he visited) has most definitely been affected in a big way. Also something in there about serious omissions in environmental impact studies produced by exploration companies, but I was politely "greeting" at a taxi at the time so didn't catch it all

Like I said, anecdotal, but interesting to hear comments from someone who has actually visited an area where fracking has been implemented
 
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That's not anecdotal at all! That's a fact finding mission. What is with this 'expert' thing? Cant people have opinions and come to conclusions without being 'experts'?
 
... and this is the kind of schidt that really fsking worries me...
The state is gearing up to play a significant role in the extraction of shale gas in the Karoo, mirroring the role state-owned companies play in other mining sectors, including coal and diamonds.

Announcing some of the details of the report on hydraulic fracturing by the task team, of which a working group was led by the Petroleum Agency SA (Pasa), Mineral Resources Minister Susan Shabangu noted yesterday that the government was playing a role in the extraction of coal in Mpumalanga through a state-owned company.

In a similar way it was likely that a state-owned company would be involved in the shale gas business in the Karoo, Shabangu said at a media briefing in Parliament.
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Arthur said:
The fracking itself, if responsibly done, is a good thing, just like any resource extraction. It will also bring benefit to thousands of impoverished and unemployed people in the Karoo.

I hope the final go-ahead is not delayed.
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And we know how responsible all these oil companies are ;)
 
Also, let's not forget that Batho Batho Trust (solid cANCer links) has a 51% stake in Thebe Investments. Thebe Investments is the local empowerment partner of Shell South Africa ...
 
Inevitably a state-owned company will be involved to some extent. But the operation itself is controlled by Shell. This won't be a government project.

I was being facetious with the expert comment, admittedly, however when it comes to analysing risk factors in the Karoo, it should be specific to the Karoo. My issue all along has been about solutions. I think it's great when evidence comes to the fore of potential pollution, because it highlights an understanding of the underlying issues for which solutions can be found.

As I have pointed out all along through this thread, my issue is with those calling for its outright banning. If it is found that fracking will pollute water systems and these water systems are vital to agriculture and a large portion of the eco-system, and no measures are put in place to safeguard against this or to provide alternative, clean water supplies, then I'd happily change my tune about its benefits. Until then, I refuse to make such a bold call as to call for its banning. In fact until then, I support it on the grounds previously mentioned in this thread...
 
McSack said:
Also, let's not forget that Batho Batho Trust (solid cANCer links) has a 51% stake in Thebe Investments. Thebe Investments is the local empowerment partner of Shell South Africa ...
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I know Thebe inside out having done a lot of work with and for them over the years. They are a solid company, regardless of their ANC links. I despise this argument about it obviously failing because a trust with little board control over Thebe who might partner with Shell at some point could be involved to some degree. Operationally it will be controlled by Shell. Financially, the risk is Shell's based on who they choose to partner with. Your tax rands are safe...
 
daveza said:
Well shoo-wow and groovy.


So one more question -

If the very unthinkable worst happens and the water is contaminated... what's the plan ?
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Well apparently it's no problem for DJ
Give him the water to drink
 
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