Article: Platinum strike talks deadlocked

[Rocket-Boy]

You put on your robe and wizard hat?

Hekekeke
Bloodninja FTW!

 

[Creag]

There was something quite inevitable about this. One of the seven deadly sins is GREED. Be woe and betide they who will only settle for the impossible. It will come back to haunt them.

Mining houses are going to lay off worker and / or close mines as they become unproductive to mine. The longer AMCU holds out the worse it will be for them. As it is support industries are bleeding and mining houses are considering to retrench thousands over the next year or two.

 

[agentrfr]

As sad as it is for the minority of miners that don't want to strike, I think they should go ahead and retrench all of them and close/scale down the mining operations. Fallacy of popular opinion / Tyranny of Majority is terrible, isn't it.

 

[Bona Botse]

There was something quite inevitable about this. One of the seven deadly sins is GREED. Be woe and betide they who will only settle for the impossible. It will come back to haunt them.

Mining houses are going to lay off worker and / or close mines as they become unproductive to mine. The longer AMCU holds out the worse it will be for them. As it is support industries are bleeding and mining houses are considering to retrench thousands over the next year or two.

Capitalism is based on this greed that you speak of though, no? The mines say they can't afford the demanded increases because then they won't make a profit. Greed?

 

[Syphonx]

Capitalism is based on this greed that you speak of though, no? The mines say they can't afford the demanded increases because then they won't make a profit. Greed?

I think at every robot you stop at you should give every beggar that comes up to you R100. You can't afford that? You're obviously extremely greedy

 

[Bona Botse]

I think at every robot you stop at you should give every beggar that comes up to you R100. You can't afford that? You're obviously extremely greedy

Well, yes, I am extremely greedy because I live in a system that dictates that I must be greedy. Not sure what your point was though.

 

[Syphonx]

Well, yes, I am extremely greedy because I live in a system that dictates that I must be greedy. Not sure what your point was though.

The "system" dictates nothing, you are of course free to go live in Cuba and enjoy their marvelous communist system. Don't blame your shortcomings on some imaginary rules.

 

[Bona Botse]

The "system" dictates nothing, you are of course free to go live in Cuba and enjoy their marvelous communist system. Don't blame your shortcomings on some imaginary rules.

So, in your opinion, capitalism is not based on greed? Why do you assume that I'm in favour of communism? Are you like those guys that call anyone critical of the DA, ANC supporters?

 

[Syphonx]

So, in your opinion, capitalism is not based on greed? Why do you assume that I'm in favour of communism? Are you like those guys that call anyone critical of the DA, ANC supporters?

It's based on free and voluntary trade, if we use your warped logic that just because some people in an economic system are greedy then the system is based on greed we can conclude that communism is also based on greed, because those in power in a communist system are certainly greedy, the same applies to socialism or any other system. Thus singling out just capitalism for greed would indicate you have a bias against it and obvious hold other economic systems in higher regard as they weren't mentioned. Of course I've been ignoring the fact that greed is entirely a human condition and cannot be attributed to some intagible system, thus if you want to blame greed then blame people. Reversely there are also many people who are charitable in a capitalist system, I guess that means that capitalism is based on charity as well then?

 

[Bona Botse]

It's based on free and voluntary trade, if we use your warped logic that just because some people in an economic system are greedy then the system is based on greed we can conclude that communism is also based on greed, because those in power in a communist system are certainly greedy, the same applies to socialism or any other system. Thus singling out just capitalism for greed would indicate you have a bias against it and obvious hold other economic systems in higher regard as they weren't mentioned. Of course I've been ignoring the fact that greed is entirely a human condition and cannot be attributed to some intagible system, thus if you want to blame greed then blame people. Reversely there are also many people who are charitable in a capitalist system, I guess that means that capitalism is based on charity as well then?

Why do you keep comparing capitalism to communism or other systems? Maybe they're all broken and their purpose is to enrich a select few through the suffering of the many? I singled out capitalism because we live in a capitalist society.

If the system allows itself to be manipulated so adversely by "the greed of the people" then the system is broken. If the top 1% controlling nearly half of a capitalist society's wealth is not greed then I honestly don't know what is. Oh but the 99% are free and volunteer to be in the 99%, right? The fact that capitalism is a system of scarcity means that there will always be The Have's and The Have-Not's, and as long as those exist then our human condition will always rear its ugly head, and so capitalism can never, ever be free of greed.

Are the miners being greedy with their demands? You betcha.
Are the mines being greedy in the wages they pay the miners? You betcha. They want to pay AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE to the miners while making as much money for shareholders as possible (capitalism). Did the miners' wages increase concurrently with profit growth over the years? I've done no research whatsoever on this but I'm willing to bet a case of beer that they did not.

Greed begets greed and to glorify one type of greed while condemning another is... I dunno, funny?

 

[Syphonx]

Why do you keep comparing capitalism to communism or other systems? Maybe they're all broken and their purpose is to enrich a select few through the suffering of the many? I singled out capitalism because we live in a capitalist society.

Because you're under the impression that greed exists only in capitalist systems, it exists in every system because every system consists of humans.

If the system allows itself to be manipulated so adversely by "the greed of the people" then the system is broken. If the top 1% controlling nearly half of a capitalist society's wealth is not greed then I honestly don't know what is. Oh but the 99% are free and volunteer to be in the 99%, right? The fact that capitalism is a system of scarcity means that there will always be The Have's and The Have-Not's, and as long as those exist then our human condition will always rear its ugly head, and so capitalism can never, ever be free of greed.

Any system will include scarcity because we don't have infinite resources, nor do we have infinite resources to produce goods. And as said before, greed is a human condition, if you wish to rid the world of greed I suggest you create a virus to wipe out every human on this planet.

Are the miners being greedy with their demands? You betcha.
Are the mines being greedy in the wages they pay the miners? You betcha. They want to pay AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE to the miners while making as much money for shareholders as possible (capitalism). Did the miners' wages increase concurrently with profit growth over the years? I've done no research whatsoever on this but I'm willing to bet a case of beer that they did not.

Nobody wants to pay more than they have to for something, and everyone wants to recieve as much as possible for their time/labour/skills/capital etc. What results is a compromise which as long as both parties agree to it voluntarily is perfectly ok. If workers pay must increase in relation to profits it should decrease as well in line with profits, and if there are no profits do the workers not get paid? I doubt they would agree to that. Working for someone else removes the risk of not earning an income if the company does not perform well, but for that security you give up the rights to claim a profit share. You seem to lack basic insight into economics and how businesses are run, your mindset is more in the vein of the EFF than anything else.

Greed begets greed and to glorify one type of greed while condemning another is... I dunno, funny?

You act like the concept of greed is black and white. If a greedy individual decides he wants to be a billionaire and sets about creating a product to achieve that goal while at the same time that said product ends up improving the lives of millions of people while making him a billionaire you say that is automatically bad? What if that individual used murder,extortion, theft, fraud etc. to achieve his billions, both are driven by greed but one is obviously desirable and other isn't. Greed is not automatically good or bad, the methods used to satisfy that greed will determine that.

 

[Bona Botse]

Because you're under the impression that greed exists only in capitalist systems, it exists in every system because every system consists of humans.

And where did I say this? In fact, I've stated the opposite of this.

Any system will include scarcity because we don't have infinite resources, nor do we have infinite resources to produce goods. And as said before, greed is a human condition, if you wish to rid the world of greed I suggest you create a virus to wipe out every human on this planet.

Nobody wants to pay more than they have to for something, and everyone wants to recieve as much as possible for their time/labour/skills/capital etc. What results is a compromise which as long as both parties agree to it voluntarily is perfectly ok. If workers pay must increase in relation to profits it should decrease as well in line with profits, and if there are no profits do the workers not get paid? I doubt they would agree to that. Working for someone else removes the risk of not earning an income if the company does not perform well, but for that security you give up the rights to claim a profit share. You seem to lack basic insight into economics and how businesses are run, your mindset is more in the vein of the EFF than anything else.

You act like the concept of greed is black and white. If a greedy individual decides he wants to be a billionaire and sets about creating a product to achieve that goal while at the same time that said product ends up improving the lives of millions of people while making him a billionaire you say that is automatically bad? What if that individual used murder,extortion, theft, fraud etc. to achieve his billions, both are driven by greed but one is obviously desirable and other isn't. Greed is not automatically good or bad, the methods used to satisfy that greed will determine that.

You're right, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the top 1% owning 50% of the world's wealth. Capitalism is as perfect as it gets .

Unfortunately, the miners don't agree and their "bad greed" seems to be winning over the "good corporate greed" right now. It was bound to happen.

Also, about me lacking insight into economics? My successful company that employs 200 people disagrees with your opinion.

 

[Syphonx]

And where did I say this? In fact, I've stated the opposite of this.

Then why bother to single out a single system, why not look at the real source of greed that is humans, the system really is irrelevant in this case.

You're right, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the top 1% owning 50% of the world's wealth. Capitalism is as perfect as it gets .

So you have a better system? Because I don't see how a system of voluntary trade can be improved upon. and the facts you are stating (regardless of how accurate they are) are not as shocking as you make them out to be, there are entire countries ravaged by civil war, obviously people there have absolutely nothing, it is then easy for a few wealthy individuals to have a large percentage of the wealth. You concentrate on how much the wealthy have and complain they should have less, you should be concentrating on whether the poor have the oppurtunities to better themselves, that is the only way they will escape poverty, but if they don't use those oppurtinites you certainly cannot continue to blame the wealthy.

Unfortunately, the miners don't agree and their "bad greed" seems to be winning over the "good corporate greed" right now. It was bound to happen.

The miners don't understand and the unions use that to exploit them. They use violence to keep those who are actually happy with the pay rise offered from returning to work, If you want to see true greed look at the union leaders, not the companies or the uneducated workers.

Also, about me lacking insight into economics? My successful company that employs 200 people disagrees with your opinion.

It is certainly possible to run a company without any real understandings of economics, an understanding of customers and your products can get you by. Anyway just stating you have a successful company means squat, successful compared to what? Do you have government tenders or assistance, How do competitors stack up? etc.

 

[Bona Botse]

Then why bother to single out a single system, why not look at the real source of greed that is humans, the system really is irrelevant in this case.

If humans are greedy then it's farcical to have them abide by a system where only the top 1% greediest can prosper and control 50% of the world's resources.

So you have a better system? Because I don't see how a system of voluntary trade can be improved upon. and the facts you are stating (regardless of how accurate they are) are not as shocking as you make them out to be, there are entire countries ravaged by civil war, obviously people there have absolutely nothing, it is then easy for a few wealthy individuals to have a large percentage of the wealth. You concentrate on how much the wealthy have and complain they should have less, you should be concentrating on whether the poor have the oppurtunities to better themselves, that is the only way they will escape poverty, but if they don't use those oppurtinites you certainly cannot continue to blame the wealthy.

The miners don't understand and the unions use that to exploit them. They use violence to keep those who are actually happy with the pay rise offered from returning to work, If you want to see true greed look at the union leaders, not the companies or the uneducated workers.

It is certainly possible to run a company without any real understandings of economics, an understanding of customers and your products can get you by. Anyway just stating you have a successful company means squat, successful compared to what? Do you have government tenders or assistance, How do competitors stack up? etc.

If you're desensitised to the fact that most people in the world live in poverty due to the pursuit of profit by the top 1% then good for you. I suppose it's easier to shrug it off when you're closer to (or indeed in the) top 1% but it's only a matter of time before the people revolt. No state of absolute power lasts forever.

And please stop making stuff up, like "You concentrate on how much the wealthy have and complain they should have less"... Where did I say that? You have it set in your mind that I'm a communist because I oppose capitalism and you're wrong.

There's really no point in giving examples of possible alternative systems to you because I doubt you're open minded enough to even entertain them. Maybe Google and read up, it may sound better coming from a non-Commie.

 

[Syphonx]

If humans are greedy then it's farcical to have them abide by a system where only the top 1% greediest can prosper and control 50% of the world's resources.

You certainly have a special hate for capitalism which has lead you to speaking absolute crap, you will find in any advanced capitalist country that more than just 1% of the population are prospering, in fact a majority will be found to be prospering, especially if you were to look back 50, 100 or 200 years back and compare to modern day living standards you will find even the poor have prospered compared to the poor of a century ago. A capitalist system, or more specifically a free market system where liberty is put first and foremost is the only system where anyone has the oppurtunity to prosper. You will find in other system's an even greater proportion of wealth in control of the 1%, for example communism would be one.

If you're desensitised to the fact that most people in the world live in poverty due to the pursuit of profit by the top 1% then good for you. I suppose it's easier to shrug it off when you're closer to (or indeed in the) top 1% but it's only a matter of time before the people revolt. No state of absolute power lasts forever.

Sorry to break it to you but the fact that you own a "successful" company of 200 people puts you near the top 1%, certainly the top 10%. I suggest you immediately shut it down and join the bottom 10%, you're obviously desensitised. I'm sure in your head you're justifying it by claiming you provide employment to 200 people who would otherwise have no source of income, but hopefully now you've also suddenly realised that the top 1% also employ hundreds of thousands of people who would otherwise have no job. Your hatred (or is it jealousy?) is so strong that you haven't even realised that you would be considered part of the exact group you're complaining about. It's like complaining about crime while loading a stolen plasma into your bakkie.

And please stop making stuff up, like "You concentrate on how much the wealthy have and complain they should have less"... Where did I say that? You have it set in your mind that I'm a communist because I oppose capitalism and you're wrong.

So you complain about the wealthy but don't think anything should be done about it? You complain about the system but don't have any ideas on how to improve it. You complain about the system that seems to have benefited you quite well, not sure if that's hypocrisy or short sightedness. It seems you just like to complain and jump on the crucify the rich, the system is the devil bandwagon.

There's really no point in giving examples of possible alternative systems to you because I doubt you're open minded enough to even entertain them. Maybe Google and read up, it may sound better coming from a non-Commie.

It always amuses me that when people don't actually have anything to say they will blame the other person for not understanding and make it their fault. It's ok to admit you don't have any alternatives.

 

[Bona Botse]

You certainly have a special hate for capitalism which has lead you to speaking absolute crap, you will find in any advanced capitalist country that more than just 1% of the population are prospering, in fact a majority will be found to be prospering, especially if you were to look back 50, 100 or 200 years back and compare to modern day living standards you will find even the poor have prospered compared to the poor of a century ago. A capitalist system, or more specifically a free market system where liberty is put first and foremost is the only system where anyone has the oppurtunity to prosper. You will find in other system's an even greater proportion of wealth in control of the 1%, for example communism would be one.
Sorry to break it to you but the fact that you own a "successful" company of 200 people puts you near the top 1%, certainly the top 10%. I suggest you immediately shut it down and join the bottom 10%, you're obviously desensitised. I'm sure in your head you're justifying it by claiming you provide employment to 200 people who would otherwise have no source of income, but hopefully now you've also suddenly realised that the top 1% also employ hundreds of thousands of people who would otherwise have no job. Your hatred (or is it jealousy?) is so strong that you haven't even realised that you would be considered part of the exact group you're complaining about. It's like complaining about crime while loading a stolen plasma into your bakkie.
So you complain about the wealthy but don't think anything should be done about it? You complain about the system but don't have any ideas on how to improve it. You complain about the system that seems to have benefited you quite well, not sure if that's hypocrisy or short sightedness. It seems you just like to complain and jump on the crucify the rich, the system is the devil bandwagon.

It always amuses me that when people don't actually have anything to say they will blame the other person for not understanding and make it their fault. It's ok to admit you don't have any alternatives.

I'm well aware of where I stand with respect to the top 1%. I'm not in denial about the system that I live in and I have taken advantage of opportunities presented to me but that doesn't mean that I'm blind to the exploitative nature of it all. Call it hypocrisy if you wish; hypocrisy, like greed, is another symptom of the human condition. Since you seem incapable of having a discussion without making stuff up, like my supposed hatred for capitalism, I am Frank and Frank must go. I good you bid evening.

 

[Syphonx]

I'm well aware of where I stand with respect to the top 1%. I'm not in denial about the system that I live in and I have taken advantage of opportunities presented to me but that doesn't mean that I'm blind to the exploitative nature of it all. Call it hypocrisy if you wish; hypocrisy, like greed, is another symptom of the human condition. Since you seem incapable of having a discussion without making stuff up, like my supposed hatred for capitalism, I am Frank and Frank must go. I good you bid evening.

Still waiting for those alternatives..........