Article: Red Bull ad offensive

[porchrat]

Yea, the view, not the people. Too many times the criticism is aimed at the person who holds the view rather than the view.

That doesn't apply in the case of this ad. As far as I'm concerned those that call for or support the censorship of this ad don't actually want to live in a free society. I find those people repulsive.

I will say it again: if you want all criticism of your view to be silenced go and live in a theocracy.

I know many YEC Christians who are honest and sincere, yet they get personally attacked for their view. The same goes for a few athiests I know.

In the case of YEC there is plenty to criticise on a personal level. In order to embrace YEC that individual has to discard huge portions of observable reality. This is neither healthy nor rational and there is nothing wrong with pointing this out.

In the case of many atheists there is also plenty to criticise on a personal level. I think that while Richard Dawkins is a great scientist he comes across as a slimy used car salesman. I am perfectly happy to voice this opinion and I certainly don't expect someone to try to censor me. After all we are supposed to be living in a soceity that respects the right to freedom of expression.

 

[copacetic]

I think that while Richard Dawkins is a great scientist he comes across as a slimy used car salesman.

Really?

I'd love some examples of this behaviour on his part, because I really haven't seen it. As far as I can tell, the worst the poor guy is guilty of, is having a posh accent and a strong opinion.

 

[Mars]

Of course this does happen, but what happens far more often in my opinion, is that religious people choose to confuse a criticism of their religion as a personal attack.

*edit*

What also really get me, is the double standards that are always at play in these debates. An honest reading through of a thread like this will show the attitude of some of the religious folk towards atheists (in this case, we are miserable,angry, upset, bullies, etc, etc) but you don't see us crying foul and whimpering about it, generally, as I for one recognize their right to free speech, even if it is silly, untrue and derogatory.

Thats true. The same also goes for some atheists who see a simple "bless you" as a personal attack.

 

[porchrat]

Really?

I'd love some examples of this behaviour on his part, because I really haven't seen it. As far as I can tell, the worst the poor guy is guilty of, is having a posh accent and a strong opinion.

Obviously as I stated this is merely my opinion. It is the impression I get from his mannerisms and the way he talks to people. I haven't watched nearly enough of his videos to consider this a set-in-stone opinion though.

 

[copacetic]

Thats true. The same also goes for some atheists who see a simple "bless you" as a personal attack.

That is ridiculous, and I will happily ridicule anyone who does such an inane thing.

 

[copacetic]

Obviously as I stated this is merely my opinion. It is the impression I get from his mannerisms and the way he talks to people. I haven't watched nearly enough of his videos to consider this a set-in-stone opinion though.

My worry is that you are allowing the essentially international character assassination effort aimed at him, to colour your perception.

I, too, began buying into the notion that he was an arrogant arse, but on further examination he seems honestly like one of the nicest guys around.

 

[RanzB]

Really?

I'd love some examples of this behaviour on his part, because I really haven't seen it. As far as I can tell, the worst the poor guy is guilty of, is having a posh accent and a strong opinion.

While not going as far as porchrat, I sometimes have misgivings about Dawkins. I understand that he's been attacked by the religious for a while now, so he's probably just done with people evading questions and the like during debates. That being said, he does come across as too delighted that some people of faith don't have all the answers, which is kind of the point of faith itself. I remember a debate of him shouting at an imam a few times the same question over and over.

 

[RanzB]

Thats true. The same also goes for some atheists who see a simple "bless you" as a personal attack.

I think you made that up.

 

[porchrat]

My worry is that you are allowing the essentially international character assassination effort aimed at him, to colour your perception.

I, too, began buying into the notion that he was an arrogant arse, but on further examination he seems honestly like one of the nicest guys around.

No he is in my experience pretty arrogant. I don't bother to read articles assasinating his character so I don't see how that sort of thing can colour my opinion on him. Other than the ocassional piece of trash that Apache posts that I instantly discard as obvious schit the only exposure I have ot Dawkins are youtube videos. In the ones I have watched he will very seldom entertain others and begins his response with a flat out "no you are wrong".

I haven't seen much of his stuff so I admit I'm basing my opinion of him on what I think is about 5 clips from youtube of a few minutes each. As I said it is far from a set-in-stone opinion and I don't consider it authoratative.

 

[ooogz]

they obviously trying to mock Christianity in some way. the higher majority in this country is Christian.
Why would I go buy a red bull after watching that?
Doesn't make sense why they would pull off a stunt cause most Christians won't find it humorous...

 

[copacetic]

While not going as far as porchrat, I sometimes have misgivings about Dawkins. I understand that he's been attacked by the religious for a while now, so he's probably just done with people evading questions and the like during debates. That being said, he does come across as too delighted that some people of faith don't have all the answers, which is kind of the point of faith itself. I remember a debate of him shouting at an imam a few times the same question over and over.

I suspect the imam was dodging his question, and I'm afraid for every one situation where Dawkins gets a little obstreperous, there's tenfold in attacks on his person by religious folk, I've seen it.

As for him taking delight in religious people not having the answers, well, I agree, although I've not seen him do this in a manner that remotely justifies the hatred spewed at him. The point is that the religious people he debates with, do claim to have most of the answers, and this is a claim that must be challenged, and I have a great deal of respect for people like Dawkins who are able to effectively do so. Being excessively polite and a simpering accommodationist achieves nothing.

I think you made that up.

I doubt he did, there are a lot of really dimbulb atheists in the world. People are often just generally idiotic, this is not limited to any particular theological position.

 

[TJ99]

While not going as far as porchrat, I sometimes have misgivings about Dawkins. I understand that he's been attacked by the religious for a while now, so he's probably just done with people evading questions and the like during debates. That being said, he does come across as too delighted that some people of faith don't have all the answers, which is kind of the point of faith itself. I remember a debate of him shouting at an imam a few times the same question over and over.

He just gets so frustrated by people dodging his questions that he loses his temper sometimes, and I can't say I blame him. Just watch the video of him with that Pastor Whateverhisnamewas, the guy who preached "homosexuality is teh evilz", right before being busted with a male prostitute and some meth.

Actually Dawkins is a remarkably patient guy, until it comes to people indoctrinating children. That seems to piss him off a tad.

But anyway, back on topic.

Edit: Sorry, it was meth, not cocaine...

 

[copacetic]

No he is in my experience pretty arrogant. I don't bother to read articles assasinating his character so I don't see how that sort of thing can colour my opinion on him. Other than the ocassional piece of trash that Apache posts that I instantly discard as obvious schit the only exposure I have ot Dawkins are youtube videos. In the ones I have watched he will very seldom entertain others and begins his response with a flat out "no you are wrong".

I haven't seen much of his stuff so I admit I'm basing my opinion of him on what I think is about 5 clips from youtube of a few minutes each. As I said it is far from a set-in-stone opinion and I don't consider it authoratative.

Fair enough.

 

[porchrat]

Fair enough.

However the point I was trying to make is that that is still my opinion, uninformed though it may be, and in a free society I should be permitted to express that opinion without fear of censorship from some Dawkins zealot that doesn't like what I am saying. So it should be the same for this advert and Christians.

 

[copacetic]

However the point I was trying to make is that that is still my opinion, uninformed though it may be, and in a free society I should be permitted to express that opinion without fear of censorship from some Dawkins zealot that doesn't like what I am saying. So it should be the same for this advert and Christians.

Goes without saying.

 

[porchrat]

they obviously trying to mock Christianity in some way. the higher majority in this country is Christian.

Whether or not the majority of the population is Christian makes little difference. If in your society you are not free to mock Christianity then your society isn't free.

Why would I go buy a red bull after watching that?

Whether or not you do is entirely your choice. Just don't try to undermine our free society by calling for censorship.

Doesn't make sense why they would pull off a stunt cause most Christians won't find it humorous...

Meh they obviously thought it would pay off. Whether it does or not has yet to be seen.

 

[RanzB]

I suspect the imam was dodging his question, and I'm afraid for every one situation where Dawkins gets a little obstreperous, there's tenfold in attacks on his person by religious folk, I've seen it.

Of course the imam was dodging his question Still was a bit off-putting though.

As for him taking delight in religious people not having the answers, well, I agree, although I've not seen him do this in a manner that remotely justifies the hatred spewed at him. The point is that the religious people he debates with, do claim to have most of the answers, and this is a claim that must be challenged, and I have a great deal of respect for people like Dawkins who are able to effectively do so. Being excessively polite and a simpering accommodationist achieves nothing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that he should stop, or be more polite. Probably the person I admire most in this field is Christopher Hitchens, and he could tell you where to get off pretty quickly. I just see where porchrat is coming from, while I do respect Dawkins and what he is trying to do, seeing him unsettled and getting into a shouting match is not becoming at times.

 

[porchrat]

Goes without saying.

LOL yes for someone as conscious of human rights as you it goes without saying

Not all people are as tolerant and understanding as you though. As evidenced by the folks in this thread that screamed for the ad's removal.

 

[w1z4rd]

they obviously trying to mock Christianity in some way. the higher majority in this country is Christian.
Why would I go buy a red bull after watching that?
Doesn't make sense why they would pull off a stunt cause most Christians won't find it humorous...

Christians are the majority for now, but not-religious is growing and Christianity is declining. Wont be long until Christians are another minority. Being non-religious is the 2nd biggest religious identity in South Africa. Its bigger than Islam and Hinduism combined.

 

[copacetic]

Of course the imam was dodging his question Still was a bit off-putting though.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that he should stop, or be more polite. Probably the person I admire most in this field is Christopher Hitchens, and he could tell you where to get off pretty quickly. I just see where porchrat is coming from, while I do respect Dawkins and what he is trying to do, seeing him unsettled and getting into a shouting match is not becoming at times.

This is the thing that gets me; The people Dawkins debates are sometimes some of the most arrogant, slippery, rude and disingenuous people this planet has to offer, yet Dawkins is the one who ends up catching flak for his behaviour.

In any event, you guys are welcome to feel however you like about him, I just find it a bit odd, personally.