Beyond the Gautrain

Palimino said:
After further intensive toe-twiddling in the bath, I also think the following design highlights are relevant.
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While giving my toes their regular twiddle workout, another thought struck me. Two loco’s would be required. For redundancy (in case of a failure) and to give each loco downtime for maintenance purposes. The firebox would need a good, regular cleaning and periodic descaling of the boiler would be required. Lubrication and regular inspections, replacement of parts, modifications, etc. can only be done on a static, cooled-down engine while the other loco bears the load (loco motive power transfer is seamless).

And another thing. Clinker ash (from the firebox) is extensively used in road construction and repair. If greed did not cause a profit to be made, it is feasible that road repair crews would remove the clinker for free. No mess, no fuss.
 
Palimino said:
While giving my toes their regular twiddle workout, another thought struck me. Two loco’s would be required. For redundancy (in case of a failure) and to give each loco downtime for maintenance purposes.
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Relax! This is the last ‘bump’ before I remove life-support and allow the thread to die and go to the thread graveyard (thread Valhalla?)

A development issue occurs to me. The building criteria for massive electricity users – like aluminium smelters (same as a small town) – should include their own power generation facility in the budgeting and construction plan, but reverse engineering existing smelters is where the power generation loco’s come-in. If smelters are removed from the national grid, there will be enough electricity. They [the smelter’s] can sell their surplus (if any) to the grid.

They would make good R&D facilities because they [the aluminium smelters] have rail connections, are motivated (their business requires reliable and sustainable electricity) and have a pool of suitable intellectual talent. Prototyping of the loco generators, before general deployment, is best done at smelter facilities to get all the ducks-in-a-row.

Of course, nothing will be done. SA has a 16-year long, unbroken record of loss & failure. This will be broken.
 
Palimino, ther is no doubt that we need to invest in clean energy, biodesel is a big factor of this too, however thing is that the biodesil industry is far more complex that one might expect, it's always changing, ad nd no-body really knows what's next. Perhaps Craig Venter will create super algae which produces the clean fuel straight from the bottle, who knows what will b done next. #2, battery and hydrogen are catching on quickly too. So is fusion and solar. another big problem in this nation is electricity. thing we should do is invest as bulk as we can in electric. we need a huge upgrade there, and it has to be clean and safe too(no nuclear).

Maglev will likely follow rail, and some other battery automated system will too, for those we need electricity as it is the only source of power that can be available anywhere you go. No pipes and hefty transport are kind of inefficient, they don't really lead to progress, lets rather invest in the field that enriches all other fields and directs us to the goal sollution anyway(ie fusion, minority report living).
 
phenom said:
Palimino, ther is no doubt that we need to invest in clean energy...
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No arguments there.

... biodesel is a big factor of this too, however thing is that the biodesil industry is far more complex that one might expect, it's always changing, ad nd no-body really knows what's next.
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I accept that it’s more complex than my glib proposition. All alternative sources of energy are.

Perhaps Craig Venter will create super algae which produces the clean fuel straight from the bottle, who knows what will b done next.
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Let’s hope so! IMO algae is the way to go. The problem is that it won’t supply employment on the same scale as my proposition. The ultimate energy solution is a combination of all methodologies depending on the environment, static or motive, etc. (motive [to a large extent] I favour biofuels). Not a ‘one-size-fits-all’ method.

#2, battery and hydrogen are catching on quickly too.
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The problem with ‘battery’ is that it still requires polluting power stations to recharge them (lots of them). You are kicking the can down the road – battery doesn’t solve the problem (no matter how much the makers of the ‘Joule’ and the ‘Volt’ cars fondly imagine it does).

Hydrogen involves fuel cells and a terrific overhaul of infrastructure (garages, skills, etc.). Actually, so does battery. With the biofuel option, modifications to the billions of existing internal combustion engines and infrastructure is minimal and cheap (a biggie).

So is fusion and solar.
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Fusion power is the holy grail – electric vehicles will be viable then. Solar (panels) are too inefficient and expensive at the moment. This may change, but it is a non-starter now.

... clean and safe too(no nuclear).
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Too true. I would hate to live down-wind from Koeburg (like CT).

Maglev will likely follow rail...
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Can you (honestly) see maglev trains in SA? With our skills, goats on the track and intermittent electricity supply? Train accidents will be catastrophic with a failure of power at those speeds. It is challenging even for a 1st world country. If the regular rail system can work in a crippled fashion in SA it will be an accomplishment. Maglev is delusional for SA.

Biofuels rule!
 
Palimino said:
I accept that it’s more complex than my glib proposition. All alternative sources of energy are.
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I'm only sayign that we can't have mass adotion until we know. However with electric we do know that it will be the future, especially for trains., it's the only one available everywhere and the only one which doesn't require transport. As to loss through distance, well this will be solved in no-time.

Let’s hope so! IMO algae is the way to go. The problem is that it won’t supply employment on the same scale as my proposition. The ultimate energy solution is a combination of all methodologies depending on the environment, static or motive, etc. (motive [to a large extent] I favour biofuels). Not a ‘one-size-fits-all’ method.
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Algae is superb for the next 30 years, even Gates and Buffet are investing in algae, however algae only serves as competition to oil, to lenthen or buy us time to adopt to the next full alternative, it's also clean and may be good for other industries to clean up excess CO2 waste too. Battery and Hydrogen are a combination made in heaven, they are both the technologies of the future. There is no better ultimatum as to the possibilities of safe chemicals than hydrogen, or at least this is the direction it points to.

And yes, in the end, we do need a one size - fits most solution. we can't have a entire supermarket of chemicals available at the petrol station, it is inefficient and it's not really too many unnecessary markets too. i see Bio-deasil (for old vechels), Hydrogen(for trucks and planes), and parkinglot/sidewalk/home electric for conventional vechils and trains.

The problem with ‘battery’ is that it still requires polluting power stations to recharge them (lots of them). You are kicking the can down the road – battery doesn’t solve the problem (no matter how much the makers of the ‘Joule’ and the ‘Volt’ cars fondly imagine it does).
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Not really, or even at all. These batteries simple take advantage of being able to be more efficient. Power usage usually halves at night, so this is ample for most of the cars which charge at night. In-day, charging, which will likely simply be on the sidewalk/parking at work, would work well too as they will likely be networked to charge when there are dips in the cities power usage.

Hydrogen involves fuel cells and a terrific overhaul of infrastructure (garages, skills, etc.). Actually, so does battery. With the biofuel option, modifications to the billions of existing internal combustion engines and infrastructure is minimal and cheap (a biggie).
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Not at all. Hydrogen is simply a other form of the battery. A great storage of power for trucks and the like who need a quick fill up. Hydrogen is directly converted from water so transport is not a problem.

Biofuels are a gread additive, however they don't lead to a final solution. They are simply better to invest in than oil would be, but that's it.



Fusion power is the holy grail – electric vehicles will be viable then. Solar (panels) are too inefficient and expensive at the moment. This may change, but it is a non-starter now.
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True, but it's still a good as a slice of the pie.



Too true. I would hate to live down-wind from Koeburg (like CT).
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... yip, http://www.news24.com/Columnists/AndreasSpath/Some-cancer-with-your-nuke-energy-20100707

4 more planned for SA

I think that a great alternative for us would be off-shore wind.ie. http://inhabitat.com/2010/07/01/new-wind-float-stable-enough-to-hold-worlds-largest-wind-turbine/

and a very small amount of sea space will be needed to do this too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK8ccWSZkic

Even so, it wil lbe great for CPT as the south sea here really has a great deal of strong wind


Can you (honestly) see maglev trains in SA? With our skills, goats on the track and intermittent electricity supply? Train accidents will be catastrophic with a failure of power at those speeds. It is challenging even for a 1st world country. If the regular rail system can work in a crippled fashion in SA it will be an accomplishment. Maglev is delusional for SA.
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Perhaps for the mass scale, but remember i said that it should be done on the small scale at first. And no, not as to the skycar concept which is significantly cheaper than metro. so what it depends on here is mostly area. As the adoptation of technology increases, the technology becomes cheaper and better too - lets not forget about this.

Biofuels rule!
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Electricity is the future!
 
phenom said:
However with electric we do know that it will be the future, especially for trains., it's the only one available everywhere and the only one which doesn't require transport.
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Electric will always be with us – true. But until a cheap source is available (like fusion) the emphasis will be on a more thrifty use of power and avoiding extravagant use of it. Until there is fusion power, trains (except for commuting in urban areas) will continue to be a profligate waste of power and infrastructure (overhead lines, etc.).

As to loss through distance, well this will be solved in no-time.
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Not too sure about this. Transmission losses are pretty immutable. With fusion it won’t matter.

Battery and Hydrogen are a combination made in heaven, they are both the technologies of the future.
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Batteries can become more efficient but they still need to be charged. My previous views pertain. Hydrogen is a good fuel but it is incredibly dangerous.

And yes, in the end, we do need a one size - fits most solution. we can't have a entire supermarket of chemicals available at the petrol station, it is inefficient and it's not really too many unnecessary markets too.
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No, we don’t! Biofuels (from a myriad of sources) are blended at the refinery and delivered as a single, blended, volatile liquid to garages. Static power is via wind, methane, hydro, geothermal, etc. NOT a one-size-fits-all solution (like oil) but a number of different power sources.

Power usage usually halves at night, so this is ample for most of the cars which charge at night.
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It is barely a fraction of 1% of ‘ample’. A city full of electric vehicles charging at the same time? The power demand will be enormous and will require several new power stations.

Hydrogen is directly converted from water so transport is not a problem.
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Presumably you are talking about hydrolysis (decaying water into hydrogen and oxygen). Currently, it requires more power for hydrolysis than can be gained from the process. It won’t work. Hydrogen will have to be transported in its dangerous form (what about a car accident?).

Electricity is the future!
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Biofuels forever!
 
Palimino said:
Electric will always be with us – true. But until a cheap source is available (like fusion) the emphasis will be on a more thrifty use of power and avoiding extravagant use of it. Until there is fusion power, trains (except for commuting in urban areas) will continue to be a profligate waste of power and infrastructure (overhead lines, etc.).

Not too sure about this. Transmission losses are pretty immutable. With fusion it won’t matter.
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The lines are only active when there are trains using them.
And no, many more developments as to wasteage.S Superconducting cables have made huge leaps and many are about to bring their rewards to the industry. Another idea would be to couple a liquid hydrogen pipeline with the superconducting cable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperGri
Batteries can become more efficient but they still need to be charged. My previous views pertain. Hydrogen is a good fuel but it is incredibly dangerous.
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Yes, just exactly as biofuels and petrol is too, however not so much so, certain nations such as Iceland are already 100% hydrogen/hydrogen-battery, however there are many attempts to make hydrogen safer too, and progress is being made.

Even so technologies shuch as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid which is being rolled out nation wide in the US today could also save us a great deal as now those cables won't be one when the trains aren't moving over them.

Hydrogen is still a great option for planes and trucks where a quick fill up is necessary. Electricity is great for cars as peole park them all the time and this is ample for a refill. Average petrol tank sized battery will take you about a third as long as the tank would,current Hydrogen tech actually does a bit further. New and even safer tech for the already safest tech is ariving year on year. Telsa-Toyota is about to bring out a new battery that increases life by 50%, decreases charging time(current Telsas are 2 hours), in increases battery life (current knowleadge could make this 20 years easy). Great progress is being made on battery tech already and much more progress is on the cards(labs) too.
No, we don’t! Biofuels (from a myriad of sources) are blended at the refinery and delivered as a single, blended, volatile liquid to garages. Static power is via wind, methane, hydro, geothermal, etc. NOT a one-size-fits-all solution (like oil) but a number of different power sources.
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Should also be transported hundreds, if not many thousands of KM to the gararges too, if not only after traveling through billion$ pipelines. Yes, but electricity is avalible everywhere and could fit most and probably all eventually too. Planes and trucks go hydrogen.


It is barely a fraction of 1% of ‘ample’. A city full of electric vehicles charging at the same time? The power demand will be enormous and will require several new power stations.
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nont really: and really at less than 10% of the cost of oil, it's a great deal as now there is far more money to invest bulk in electricity, thus electricity would become far more efficient. and i really don't think that one would want to us a tech that is 10x more expentive either

Really think that half the cities electricity is still not enough?

evne so, the powerstations (which cost tens or even hundreds of billions to build), are basically wasting 1/2 of their capacityon bad efficiency. http://www.quadrant.org.au/img/content/Figure 1 a.gif a great score for us to use all that gratis energy left behind, it would bring great investment to build more powerstations/windmills for cheaper electricity too. then there's technoloy infestructure and development brought too. we would not only be more efficient but we would be on a straight course to more robust technological developmetn too, for more appropriate applications.
Presumably you are talking about hydrolysis (decaying water into hydrogen and oxygen). Currently, it requires more power for hydrolysis than can be gained from the process. It won’t work. Hydrogen will have to be transported in its dangerous form (what about a car accident?).
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Well yes, obviously, but it doesn't wastes a negligible amount of energy, as when comparing it to it's task, which is to provide a quick re-fill. And no, it is still far cheaper than petrol.

Biofuels forever!
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sure, the startrek enterprise is powered by corn :rolleyes:

Biofules are great, but only as a temporary(30years max) help they are not a full-on solution either.

Tens of trillions could be made in biofuels, just as trillions are being made in oil, however biofuels ONLY serve as replacement for oil, it may be better(not the best), but it's not what we want in the end.

Best to invest in Electric.
 
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phenom said:
Should also be transported hundreds, if not many thousands of KM to the gararges too, if not only after traveling through billion$ pipelines.
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This only happens now because it’s a scarce resource - OIL (and it is transported from the sea or where it’s located). Biofuels can be grown locally. No need for long pipelines and the associated risks of terrorist attack, pollution, etc.

Another aspect to be factored-in. The world (over decades) has cleaved to the internal combustion engine. Massive infrastructure on operation, maintenance and repair (including skills) is invested. New technologies are going to be expensive and unpopular. The oil interest lobby will be especially hard to convince (it’s their business) but with biofuels, much of their infrastructure can be used (storage tanks, refineries, etc.) with little modification, thus it will be easier to convince them in the direction of biofuels (still hard though). Their is no huge expense or inconvenience associated with Joe Citizen changing over to the biofuel cleaner energy option (he already has his internal combustion engined car – modifying that will be much cheaper). Public transport electric may be used in urban areas (noise pollution & crowding), but as a general ‘fixit’ solution it’s a non-starter for Joe Citizen (maybe if you are rich).
 
Forget about what a government did 20 years ago.

It is the duty of the government to oversee and grow our vital infrastructure and the ANC is not doing that. They lack the expertise and knowledge to be proactive so they become reactive.

In a large country like SA railways are vital arteries of the nation and we need to focus on keeping them healthy.
 
blunomore said:
What WC ???
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The WESTERN CAPE :)

ever been on a train from cpt to knysna? beautiful! would be a great boost for the Knysna economy too.

And at this speed, that's CPT to JHB in an hour
 
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