Beyond the Gautrain

[Ricard]

Completely agree, people just post any random BS to "discredit" (not that they need help) the government. No secret here. As if Ricard actually knew anything about our fiscal situation wrt railways before posting that.

Bookmark this thread.. and in 10 years time we can have a mature discussion and If I am wrong, I will gladly eat humble pie. I am not blaming Governments, I am blaming global economics - Africa is having its handouts slashed, Europe is bankrupt, SA has a declining GDP (SA is on the verge of being a Food importer, not Exporter) you can argue the age old FUD that the SARB gives you about the 'SA is isolated and protected' but if no-one is buying product, there is NO-NEED for raw materials. (which SA bases its income on)

This has a bit to do with Govt, but its not totaly the Govt fault. If the rails are upgraded, it will be done by the LOWEST bidder to the LOWEST specifications.

 

[Alestorm]

Bookmark this thread.. and in 10 years time we can have a mature discussion and If I am wrong, I will gladly eat humble pie. I am not blaming Governments, I am blaming global economics - Africa is having its handouts slashed, Europe is bankrupt, SA has a declining GDP (SA is on the verge of being a Food importer, not Exporter) you can argue the age old FUD that the SARB gives you about the 'SA is isolated and protected' but if no-one is buying product, there is NO-NEED for raw materials. (which SA bases its income on)

This has a bit to do with Govt, but its not totaly the Govt fault. If the rails are upgraded, it will be done by the LOWEST bidder to the LOWEST specifications.

Look I don't know if they will use money for railways either, but I don't think you could really say "they're pumping major money into Eskom so there's nothing left for railways" with any certainty. Your post may be true but it doesn't mean they can't spend on railways either. They've just built the Gautrain for billions and are still expanding it plus major Metrorail stations were upgraded for hundreds of millions. Neither of these were to very low specifications either, especially the Gautrain.

Given that they just did that and already have plans to spend a lot more on railways I also doubt they will do any further major overhaul of the rail system, but new train sets would be nice/necessary.

 

[devnull]

Says who? BS statement prehaps? I suppose it's easier for you to blame government than to actually look at facts.

ive got another fact for you. the anc reduced infrastructure spending from 20% gdfi in 97 to 2%, what has increased to 8% in 2010 because of the world cup. money that was used for rail and roads has been channeled to social grants. whatever problems there were before are now going to be huge problems with the addition of a whole bunch more.

 

[I am Penguin]

.........., but I .... think you could really say "they're pumping major money into Swiss bank accounts so there's nothing left for anything else" with .... certainty.

Fixed? Only a guess!

 

[sly]

I have been working on a project to help TFR increase capacity on RBCT line, just one part of Transnet... the current rail network was not designed properly.... Stop posting BS and answers this? Why does the town of ermeloo exist?

 

[I am Penguin]

I have been working on a project to help TFR increase capacity on RBCT line, just one part of Transnet... the current rail network was not designed properly.... Stop posting BS and answers this? Why does the town of ermeloo exist?

Who knows. I have/had family there. Work on the railways ... drivers I think. Anyway all I know is that it's damn cold there this time of the year.

My guess would be "shunting" yards? Midpoint?

 

[Ricard]

Look I don't know if they will use money for railways either, but I don't think you could really say "they're pumping major money into Eskom so there's nothing left for railways" with any certainty. Your post may be true but it doesn't mean they can't spend on railways either. They've just built the Gautrain for billions and are still expanding it plus major Metrorail stations were upgraded for hundreds of millions. Neither of these were to very low specifications either, especially the Gautrain.

Given that they just did that and already have plans to spend a lot more on railways I also doubt they will do any further major overhaul of the rail system, but new train sets would be nice/necessary.

The Gautrain project started 10 years ago, it was not even made with the WC in mind - more luck than management that it went online a week before. Kudos to all those who worked on it.

Do the railways have ANY plans which were started 5 years ago ? The only way the railways will get a major cash injection and fixup is if they sell it to the Chinese, and even then the lazy parastatal workers will go on strike as they dont actually like DOING an honest days work. Trains are the least of the problems - Secure Signalling, Control Centres, switching/shunting. A train cant even run properly without these small things.

Compare how much was spent on the WC2010 and then see if the spending proportions balance.

 

[sly]

true.... shunting yard exists because someone decided that one half on the country will work on Ac locomotives and other half dc locomotives... How do u manage that chaos in you have to move 248 loads a month with over 200 wagons @ 80t each... rail has a huge potential for the country, just needs proper management...

 

[Alestorm]

Do the railways have ANY plans which were started 5 years ago?

All I know of is the refurbishment program for a few billion which they undertook in the last 5 years, not exactly sure when it started but it must have been planned at least 5 years ago. There were definitely other smaller projects, like the extension of the Khayelitsha line in Cape Town, but I wouldn't know of all of them.

The only way the railways will get a major cash injection and fixup is if they sell it to the Chinese

I don't think there's much else that they did in the last decade or so, but the point is that now they are starting to spend a lot on railways again. If you look at the links in genetic's reply you'd see that PRASA alone has a R25 billion plan just for the next three years (excluding the rest of the Gautrain or the DBN-JHB rapid link), so it's actually strange that you keep claiming they can't spend any money on railways when it's already been shown that they are. And above that they're pushing for even more spending on new stock.

Trains are the least of the problems - Secure Signalling, Control Centres, switching/shunting. A train cant even run properly without these small things.

I think with our trains very close to the end of their life span they are one of our main problems. Besides that PRASA just launched a signalling infrastructure upgrade program.. again in the link from genetic. And in Cape Town we just built the a transport management centre. But of course they need to basically replace the entire system.

Compare how much was spent on the WC2010 and then see if the spending proportions balance.

I agree with this, but it's not really relevant when they are actually spending R30 billion+ on railways as well.

Here's a good article about PRASA's plans and situation. Doesn't seem like they have a bad CEO in Lucky at the moment: http://www.capemetrorail.co.za/Communication/External_Communication/27012010_Mobility_Article.pdf
I should say I'm mostly interested in PRASA/Metrorail since I actually use their trains and enjoy it, whereas freight rail running across the country is completely uninteresting to me.

 

[genetic]

Here's a good article about PRASA's plans and situation. Doesn't seem like they have a bad CEO in Lucky at the moment: http://www.capemetrorail.co.za/Communication/External_Communication/27012010_Mobility_Article.pdf
I should say I'm mostly interested in PRASA/Metrorail since I actually use their trains and enjoy it, whereas freight rail running across the country is completely uninteresting to me.[/QUOTE]

I see passenger rail more beneficial as well. I use the Muizenberg / Plumstead / Cape Town line often, but I suppose freight rail will alleviate the toll of trucking on our roads.

 

[sly]

rail is the future

 

[capetownguy]

Tell that to Transnet.

 

[I am Penguin]

rail is the future

Yep a pity that the old rail system are gone to scrap yards just like the rest will too in future!

 

[Phenom]

a bit far to walk to the train statio, take a taxi or whatever, then wait for the train, then get on the train and try not to be robbed, then the same procedure when you get off and on and off again. Not very convenient. I say it's our time to do something to break water for a change. I think that a good solution would be some ind of metro GPS controlled GPS car, it reads your schedule or you select where you want to go on your iphone it picks you up, then latches onto a sky train to rally with others more efficiently to the town you want, then takes you to the street you want. Something like minority report, however we will begin much simpler http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcS8stGOGCo.

Combine automatic IT, GPS system, special small roads/skyways, with a single cost efficient maglev rail. and you've got a transport system that is both far more cost effective, speedier, robust, scalable, clean, progressive, convenient, and safer too.
(perhaps a bit sensationalist, but it'll work for some areas)

Gautrain is pretty much the Euro tech of the 70s/80s, we are four decades behind. Maglev/automatic is the future

Also think that we should first focus on electric in this nation, as the infrastructure is really needed across all fields

 

[Ricard]

Unfortunately... I see so many people thinking that 'THE CAPE' is the benchmark for 'South Africa' - Capetown Metro might be upgrading but that is not the general trend in other municipal regions.

 

[Palimino]

Criminal activity, poor maintenance, a lack of skills, a failure to observe procedure these factors continue to undermine safety on SA’s railways.

Is the honeymoon over?

Duel-use loco’s

Use #1. I could never understand why we abandoned steam. We have tons of high sulphur coal sitting out on the East Rand complex, which is cheap. Imagine if we had poured the millions, which went into rail infrastructure and diesel locos, into steam instead (save on diesel, accessible coal etc.). We would be world leaders in steam-powered public transport, guru’s to 3rd world countries (cheap for passengers as well). Instead we emulated the West and their obsession with electric – massive infrastructure here, room for cable theft etc. - and diesel. It is not fashionable to advocate polluting fossil fuels, but steam is low-tech and the skill base (used to) exist in this country. Eskom are proposing massively expensive and polluting power stations. If you are going to pollute anyway – and the option exists for bio-diesel – why not look at steam locos? Transport and power generation.

Use #2. A temporary spur line (it only has to be used once) is built to isolated communities. A steam loco, with a generator in tow, goes to a suitable spot. The wheels are removed and the generator connected via a Power Take Off (PTO) on the loco. The loco stays in position and becomes the motive power to turn the generator. Low tech with simple fuel. Electricity for the community. Easy to change over to volatile bio-fuels (it’s a boiler) when they become available and it becomes necessary to change from polluting coal. Better than the centralised, super expensive Eskom scheme with associated power transmission losses and cable theft. Too simple and not enough latitude for corruption?

 

[Palimino]

Duel-use loco’s

Use #1. I could never understand why we abandoned steam. We have tons of high sulphur coal sitting out on the East Rand complex, which is cheap. Imagine if we had poured the millions, which went into rail infrastructure and diesel locos, into steam instead (save on diesel, accessible coal etc.). We would be world leaders in steam-powered public transport, guru’s to 3rd world countries (cheap for passengers as well). Instead we emulated the West and their obsession with electric – massive infrastructure here, room for cable theft etc. - and diesel. It is not fashionable to advocate polluting fossil fuels, but steam is low-tech and the skill base (used to) exist in this country. Eskom are proposing massively expensive and polluting power stations. If you are going to pollute anyway – and the option exists for bio-diesel – why not look at steam locos? Transport and power generation.

Use #2. A temporary spur line (it only has to be used once) is built to isolated communities. A steam loco, with a generator in tow, goes to a suitable spot. The wheels are removed and the generator connected via a Power Take Off (PTO) on the loco. The loco stays in position and becomes the motive power to turn the generator. Low tech with simple fuel. Electricity for the community. Easy to change over to volatile bio-fuels (it’s a boiler) when they become available and it becomes necessary to change from polluting coal. Better than the centralised, super expensive Eskom scheme with associated power transmission losses and cable theft. Too simple and not enough latitude for corruption?

The skills required are elementary mechanical engineering (it’s not rocket science). Designs for locos exist and are easily modified to incorporate a PTO and other stationary, electricity supply control-room issues. A local manufacturing facility (of steam locos) is possible. Employment provider? The most complex item would be the boiler. Sasol has the experience of making pressure vessels of that size. The steam skills-base in the country are old and doddery now but they exist (mentors? Apprentices?). Facilities (now used for other stuff) and know-how exist.

Is there steam in SA’s future?

 

[Palimino]

The skills required are elementary mechanical engineering (it’s not rocket science). Designs for locos exist and are easily modified to incorporate a PTO and other stationary, electricity supply control-room issues. A local manufacturing facility (of steam locos) is possible. Employment provider? The most complex item would be the boiler. Sasol has the experience of making pressure vessels of that size. The steam skills-base in the country are old and doddery now but they exist (mentors? Apprentices?). Facilities (now used for other stuff) and know-how exist.

Is there steam in SA’s future?

After further intensive toe-twiddling in the bath, I also think the following design highlights are relevant.

The RPM of the generators are critical because the frequency of the supply (Hz) relate to this. This implies a loco engine that runs indefinitely at a constant speed. This is not desirable in a transport loco (where speed changes constantly). Separate gearboxes must be developed so that the optimum functions can be exploited in the different modes. The gearboxes must be modular, so that it is relatively simple to swap them out. A loco can use the generator gearbox for transport but if that is the dedicated use, it is not ideal (good enough to get into position however). Drive train linkages must be such that it is only in one mode or another. It would be a disaster if the loco was ‘accidently’ moved while in generator mode.

Centralised pre-fabrication is crucial (the skills are available). A control room should be pre-fabricated in a shipping container and transported to the site (everything on one trip?). Provided everything is pre wired and electricity reticulation has been done in the township, supplying power will be a simple matter of plugging-in the township to the ad hoc power station. The skills required to manage the arrangement (after installation) would be no more complex than an average electrician possesses. This relates to safety mainly and not being a total moron about things electrical. No rocket scientists required (they need not apply for jobs).

 

[I am Penguin]

Duel-use loco’s

Use #1. I could never understand why we abandoned steam. We have tons of high sulphur coal sitting out on the East Rand complex, which is cheap. Imagine if we had poured the millions, which went into rail infrastructure and diesel locos, into steam instead (save on diesel, accessible coal etc.). We would be world leaders in steam-powered public transport, guru’s to 3rd world countries (cheap for passengers as well). Instead we emulated the West and their obsession with electric – massive infrastructure here, room for cable theft etc. - and diesel. It is not fashionable to advocate polluting fossil fuels, but steam is low-tech and the skill base (used to) exist in this country. Eskom are proposing massively expensive and polluting power stations. If you are going to pollute anyway – and the option exists for bio-diesel – why not look at steam locos? Transport and power generation.

Use #2. A temporary spur line (it only has to be used once) is built to isolated communities. A steam loco, with a generator in tow, goes to a suitable spot. The wheels are removed and the generator connected via a Power Take Off (PTO) on the loco. The loco stays in position and becomes the motive power to turn the generator. Low tech with simple fuel. Electricity for the community. Easy to change over to volatile bio-fuels (it’s a boiler) when they become available and it becomes necessary to change from polluting coal. Better than the centralised, super expensive Eskom scheme with associated power transmission losses and cable theft. Too simple and not enough latitude for corruption?

Great! Now I assume the coal will already be at that "required" location, no need for fuel transport unless we use Sun energy to cook the boiler? What are you on about

 

[Palimino]

Great! Now I assume the coal will already be at that "required" location, no need for fuel transport unless we use Sun energy to cook the boiler? What are you on about

Don’t be silly! Coal is transported around anyway (requires a working rail network). It would be staggeringly dof to assume that coal would only be “at that required location” and if it’s not the whole scheme crashes and burns. Fossil fuel (like coal) is only an interim measure anyway. There is pressure to go green (and provide unskilled employment). An alternative fuel for the loco boiler (other than coal) is important. Rail tankers (holding alternative fuel) are periodically left on a convenient railway siding and tapped directly for boiler fuel (just connect them up – easy peasy).

Edited from other posts.
Bio-diesel is the answer. Stacks of rural employment because the farming need not be commercial – standards don’t apply (except for food). The plants (high-yield, purpose directed plants - not food plants) are suitable for small-scale farming on crappy land with no quality control. Just plant them and harvest them in time for pick-up. The rest of the time bak balles, beat your wife and get drunk. In other words follow a traditional lifestyle.

Picture it. A railway spur (implying a working rail network) is laid-down at major nodes. A bio-diesel/steam locomotive sponsored by SASOL (your friendly alternative fuel giant – building a better nation <gag>) leaves trucks on the spur for about a week (a residential carriage as well for officials) to collect fuel plant matter from myriads of subsistence farmers. They also tow around trailers with bio-diesel powered tractors to collect the harvest of farmers who cannot get to the rail node. Payment is by cheque - no carrying of cash so that they or the farmers become targets for criminal attack. Cheque validation is by the farmer’s thumbprint (illiteracy is addressed). The banks in nearby centres have the biometric apparatus necessary to cash cheques and have been instructed to treat a severed thumb, dripping blood with deep suspicion. The banking industry also wins – all these farmers have bank accounts. Genetically engineered fuel crops (Monsanto?) should be looked into for greater yields.

Incidentally, with the bio-diesel option, all the existing power stations can be used with little or no modification (they are just boilers, you burn different stuff is all). As the vegetable matter for bio-diesel is low tech. agriculture, it will provide masses of employment. The bio-diesel growing plants are robust (so neglect is not a big issue) and do not require the same standards as foodstuff. Insecticides, gro-fast muti etc. are OK. No refrigeration or time-critical transport required. Just harvest the stuff (in your own time) and get it to the fuel-making centres at some stage – the sooner to be paid. Genetically engineered crops should also be considered. There is also a massive infrastructure devoted to the internal combustion engine (cars). Little modification with bio-fuels is required. What modification that is required is cheap. There will not be a rush to buy expensive ‘green’ vehicles that require a non-existent infrastructure (wishful thinking). No money.