Border troops won't be honoured

[mancombseepgood]

Lol

I'll leave it up to your imagination...
one is used to describe someone who has had children
the other to describe the act of... actively parenting... not just bearing children

 

[Nod]

I'll leave it up to your imagination...
one is used to describe someone who has had children
the other to describe the act of... actively parenting... not just bearing children

Yeah, like the difference between a father and a daddy. Everyone man can be a father, but how many is a daddy?

 

[Sneeky]

The main reason the SADF 'reluctantly' went north was because of the communist threat, nothing else. The RSA could ill afford a full blown war on its own doorstep, let alone on someone elses but the threat was very real and the US were even encouraging RSA to intervene.

The soldiers that fought and died there were fighting communist troops with top of the range Russian made and sponsored military hardware.

I consider fighting communism fighting for freedom. The greater 'free' world at that time and even now I think would tend to agree with that.

The 'freedom fighters', FNLA UNITA MPLA and later SWAPO were convenient allies and movements to further and mask the cause of the greater powers,
'the enemy of my enemy is my friend', and were adopted by both sides of the conflict, which ever suited their own agenda best.

It is now however quite fashionable to singularly explain the SADF's involvement up north purely as a fight to keep apartheid in place.
This is simply not true.

How anyone can find any correlation/similarity/comparison between the SADF and the NAZI's, who systematically murdered over 6 million jews and massacred millions of other people in a very short time frame, is beyond me.

 

[Bageloo]

The main reason the SADF 'reluctantly' went north was because of the communist threat, nothing else. .

Were they really "reluctant" ? same as when Terbalnche and his AWB went to Mmabatho?

I consider fighting communism fighting for freedom. The greater 'free' world at that time and even now I think would tend to agree with that.

Was SA a free world at that time?

How anyone can find any correlation/similarity/comparison between the SADF and the NAZI's, who systematically murdered over 6 million jews and massacred millions of other people in a very short time frame, is beyond me.

most of the apartheid murders remain unaccounted for!

 

[GavinMannion]

Take a look at the atrocities that UNITA, our allies, performed and you will see why everyone isn't so excited about beating the communist threat at all costs.

The SADF also murdered thousands of SA citizens. I don't think they can be thought of as the same level of inhumanity but there are some similarities.

That said, compare the US or UK's killing of thousands of Iraqi citizens and teh similarities are there again.

The SADF was the weapon used to keep apartheid together. You can imagine a few people hold some negativities about them.

 

[HosstheBoss]

The main reason the SADF 'reluctantly' went north was because of the communist threat, nothing else. The RSA could ill afford a full blown war on its own doorstep, let alone on someone elses but the threat was very real and the US were even encouraging RSA to intervene.

The soldiers that fought and died there were fighting communist troops with top of the range Russian made and sponsored military hardware.

I consider fighting communism fighting for freedom. The greater 'free' world at that time and even now I think would tend to agree with that.

The 'freedom fighters', FNLA UNITA MPLA and later SWAPO were convenient allies and movements to further and mask the cause of the greater powers,
'the enemy of my enemy is my friend', and were adopted by both sides of the conflict, which ever suited their own agenda best.

It is now however quite fashionable to singularly explain the SADF's involvement up north purely as a fight to keep apartheid in place.
This is simply not true.

How anyone can find any correlation/similarity/comparison between the SADF and the NAZI's, who systematically murdered over 6 million jews and massacred millions of other people in a very short time frame, is beyond me.

Well said, the americans were always peeping over our shoulders especially when it came to the captured SAM7's and such. USSR and the USA always used these theaters of war to test their weaponary against each others.

 

[Skeptik]

most of the apartheid murders remain unaccounted for!

Yep, the ANC had a punishment camp called Quantro(?) where many people were tortured and killed. How come we never hear much about this?

 

[RompelStompel]

Well said, the americans were always peeping over our shoulders especially when it came to the captured SAM7's and such.

The SA-8 Gecko SAM system was first seen and examined by the Western world when a single example was captured in the late 80s.

 

[zeb]

I'm glad the country continues to eject people like you every year.

That's the spirit. If you don't appreciate someone else's view, don't oppose it...get rid of the person.
Sounds a lot like something Stalin would have done.

 

[Sneeky]

Were they really "reluctant"

To go fight and fight war we new we could not afford on a distant border, certainly. Unless you have proof to the contrary.

same as when Terbalnche and his AWB went to Mmabatho?

focus, this has nothing to do with ET and his merry men and everything to do with soldiers honor.

Was SA a free world at that time?

I never said or even implied that it was.

most of the apartheid murders remain unaccounted for

again, relevance? The same can be said about murders committed today, but its irrelevant to the discussion.

Hi Gavin, I am not disputing any atrocities that UNITA, or any other ally for that matter, may have committed.
I also agree totally that the SADF was used as a formidable weapon by the apartheid state, for the apartheid state, in keeping peace and tranquility and maintaining the status quo for a select minority. Cannot dispute that at all.

Distinction though between SAP antics and those of the SADF also need to be recognised and the SADF is often wrongly (I believe) painted with the same brush.

The larger part of the population will quite understandably have bad memories and harbor many ill feelings towards the SADF for their involvement in SWA and ANGOLA.
This stems from the fact that even though the SADF were largely outnumbered and underfunded, the well disciplined and well trained machine was largely unstoppable.
As you well know, barring some very elite units the force consisted of large numbers of conscripts. PF or conscripts, these troops served and died with honor fighting a communist threat and they deserve to be remembered as such.

Sketchy memory but the SADF and RSA government were quite prepared at one stage to withdraw completely if the Cubans and their Russian mates went home too. Angola though thought otherwise at the time.

 

[Syndyre]

but can you really honour people who were trying to keep freedom from the people

as Gavin pointed out - during my last visit to the Voortrekker Monument - I didn't see a statue of Dingaan at the entrance, now did I ?

Disregarding the political question of whether or not they were keeping freedom from the people etc. for the moment, who has the right to make that decision? What gives a politically appointed manager the right to make it?

 

[Syndyre]

diabolus: You posting really does show how you feel doesn't it... It's called Freedom Park and it is meant to honour those who fought for Freedom. The Angloa war was never fought for freedom. Whether it was right or wrong is not the point. They fought to defend their ideals not for freedom.

Do you really think if the ANC and their Russian allies had "won the war" in the 70s or early 80s SA would have been free though? Was the USSR free, was Eastern Europe free? They were no more fighting for freedom than the SADF were.

 

[Skeptik]

Please bring back Confederos. He wasn't an Angelo, he was controversial and I didn't agree with him much either, but at least he had a brain and didn't insult everyone he disagreed with.

 

[Syndyre]

I'm glad the country continues to eject people like you every year.

So when are the gulags for the dissidents opening?

 

[Syndyre]

It is a sad indictement on our society, that twelve years after democracy, it seems the problems of the minority are still prioritised as the problems of the nation

Maybe its just a case of "he who shouts the loudest..." Don't see much concrete evidence of Afrikaner problems being prioritised over others, quite the contrary.

 

[GavinMannion]

The larger part of the population will quite understandably have bad memories and harbor many ill feelings towards the SADF for their involvement in SWA and ANGOLA.
This stems from the fact that even though the SADF were largely outnumbered and underfunded, the well disciplined and well trained machine was largely unstoppable.
As you well know, barring some very elite units the force consisted of large numbers of conscripts. PF or conscripts, these troops served and died with honor fighting a communist threat and they deserve to be remembered as such.

I really do beg to differ on the unstoppable part of your post.

I understand the NP's propaganda machine was running at full tilt at the time and it was also very effective, however the SADF did not win that war. Else I doubt we would be having this discussion now.

I never said they don't deserve to be remembered and neither has anyone else. I don't think they should be on the Freedom wall though since they did not fight for freedom as has been covered already in this post.

I vote for a 3rd memorial next to the voortrekker for the fallen Angolan war soldiers.

 

[Syndyre]

Please bring back Confederos. He wasn't an Angelo, he was controversial and I didn't agree with him much either, but at least he had a brain and didn't insult everyone he disagreed with.

Why, was he banned?

 

[GavinMannion]

Do you really think if the ANC and their Russian allies had "won the war" in the 70s or early 80s SA would have been free though? Was the USSR free, was Eastern Europe free? They were no more fighting for freedom than the SADF were.

I don't remember the ANC being a part of the Angolan war? Did I miss something?

If Russia was in Angola why was the US not? Do you think maybe the SADF where used like puppets and then dumped when the US had seen enough?

Maybe that is why people are so defensive of it?

Seriously I feel it was a bad war to be involved in, I think the people we sided with were/are terrible and have an awful track record.

I don't think SA should ever have gotten involved in it.

 

[Sneeky]

Differing opinions are healthy
The SADF in my book won the war hands down. The Cubans went home and the Communist threat was eased.
The difference in opinion might stem from a differing belief of what the initial reason was for the war in the first place.

The SADF were without doubt virtually unstoppable in any movement or battle during that campaign, the battle of Cuito Cuanavale in '87 being claimed by both sides however and largely hailed as a massive victory by the Cubans. The SADF claim to have completed their objective of forcing the enemy back across the river.

Castro took direct control towards the end because of the beating they were getting.
His top general 'Arnaldo Ochoa Sánchez' and 'hero of the people' (decreed by Castro) with an illustrious military career that goes way back to the bay of pigs was executed, on some trumped up treason or corruption charge.
Not the kind of thing you do to victorious generals.

 

[Syndyre]

I don't remember the ANC being a part of the Angolan war? Did I miss something?

If Russia was in Angola why was the US not? Do you think maybe the SADF where used like puppets and then dumped when the US had seen enough?

Maybe that is why people are so defensive of it?

Seriously I feel it was a bad war to be involved in, I think the people we sided with were/are terrible and have an awful track record.

I don't think SA should ever have gotten involved in it.

I wasn't referring to the Angolan war, I meant generally.