IanC
Expert Member
It's cool to preach with 20-20 hindsight ... I can't help but wonder what you might have done in similar cirmcumstances?
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Border troops won't be honoured
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It's cool to preach with 20-20 hindsight ... I can't help but wonder what you might have done in similar cirmcumstances?
How is he preaching? Its hard to know, how much did people really know of Hitler's atrocities when war broke out? Most of it e.g. the concentration camps etc. was only discovered after the war or near the end.
IanC
Expert Member
"... who were spared his tyrrany because some people decided to do something about him before he got his way"
He's preaching ... please tell me about the unaminous uprising "of the people" roughly 1939 -1941 ... the soldiers were conscripted, same as me and thee.
True, although in SA for instance the soldiers were volunteers, at that point anyway, not later.
IanC
Expert Member
I wasn't ... a volunteer, that is.
For WW2? I know there was conscription after that but I thought at that stage it was volunteer only.
IanC
Expert Member
... and I love you too
Conscription was a fact of life in early 80's ...
Cubans
Without rereading this thread, there was mention of the Cubans involvement in Angola and their contribution to the "liberation" of Angola, which now 20 years on is still a mess even after the SADF left.
The Cubans entered the war in Angola and here I may be wrong, but from what I can remember of that era they were financed by the Russians, probably with Wages and Weapons.
Take into account Cuba isn't exactly Dubai and people live on the bread line most of the time and those soldiers who went to Angola probably were Mercenary Types and in it for the money.
The only thing the Cubans had going for them was the fact that their Migs outclassed the ageing Mirages of the SAAF. Even The Russian Hind Heliciopter was formidable in it's day, which I think is why we have the Rooivalk now in our own arsenal.
A simple conventional war on the ground and the Cubans were outmatched and outclassed by the South African Infantry, Mech Inf Units and Recces.
Let's face it, Angola is a Oil Rich Country.
Who would care about Angola if it wasn't.
The Americans have always wanted to control the Oil in Angola and at the time I think the South African Forces in Angola was part of that plan to keep the Oil in control of the Americans and away from Communist Russia.
A prime example of this sort of bias is Zimbabwe.
Had Zimbabwe any quantity of oil I very much doubt Mugabe would still be in power. The Yanks would have weeded him out already.
If the SADF hadn't taken an active role in Angola it may well have gone Red, perhaps like North Korea, that sort of thing?
Anyway who cares now. That War is long time over. They must get on with it. It is indeed a lovely country with much going for it. It has the potential to be one of the richest countries in Africa.
Without rereading this thread, there was mention of the Cubans involvement in Angola and their contribution to the "liberation" of Angola, which now 20 years on is still a mess even after the SADF left.
The Cubans entered the war in Angola and here I may be wrong, but from what I can remember of that era they were financed by the Russians, probably with Wages and Weapons.
Take into account Cuba isn't exactly Dubai and people live on the bread line most of the time and those soldiers who went to Angola probably were Mercenary Types and in it for the money.
The only thing the Cubans had going for them was the fact that their Migs outclassed the ageing Mirages of the SAAF. Even The Russian Hind Heliciopter was formidable in it's day, which I think is why we have the Rooivalk now in our own arsenal.
A simple conventional war on the ground and the Cubans were outmatched and outclassed by the South African Infantry, Mech Inf Units and Recces.
Let's face it, Angola is a Oil Rich Country.
Who would care about Angola if it wasn't.
The Americans have always wanted to control the Oil in Angola and at the time I think the South African Forces in Angola was part of that plan to keep the Oil in control of the Americans and away from Communist Russia.
A prime example of this sort of bias is Zimbabwe.
Had Zimbabwe any quantity of oil I very much doubt Mugabe would still be in power. The Yanks would have weeded him out already.
If the SADF hadn't taken an active role in Angola it may well have gone Red, perhaps like North Korea, that sort of thing?
Anyway who cares now. That War is long time over. They must get on with it. It is indeed a lovely country with much going for it. It has the potential to be one of the richest countries in Africa.
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Darth Garth
Executive Member
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Army
There was elements of a draft according to the article but willing volunteers were more than sufficent to make up the numbers.
My grandfather did his bit against Rommel and I am rather proud of him for doing this.
My Grandfather was a Medic in WWII and was captured by the Germans in North Africa and spent the rest of the War holed up in a POW Camp in Italy.
My mother was only about 5 at the start of WWII and my granddad, my mom's father didn't see him for 5 years.
My father lost 2 cousins. The one cousin died at Bardia near Tobruk as part of the Imperial Light Horse fighting the Germans and the other cousin died while flying over Yugoslavia in a Mustang for No. 5 Squadron of the SAAF.
Both their names are on the Wall/Role of Honour at Wynberg Army Camp in Cape Town.
South African's sacrificed a lot during WWII.
Either way, people die in Wars and whatever the reason one shouldn't just wipe their names off because their cause was seemingly unjust, referring now to the Angolan Bush War.
They were part of a system and were called up to do their National Service for their country.
LoneGunman
Expert Member
One also needs to understand that SA was deeply divided at the time of WW2. The majority of Afrikaners sided with the enemy of England - ie: Germany. The National Party themselves were totally pro-Nazi at the time. (Using the 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' logic) - and given the still festering wounds of the Anglo-Boer war, its understandable..
I'd suggest folks interested, read 'For Volk and Fuhrer'- about the boxer Robbey Liebrandt, and his travels to Germany, and return via submarine, as a potential assassin of Smuts. Large numbers of the police force at the time, had to be arrested - as pro-Nazi supporters.
This country came within inches of becoming a Nazi State - which would have required that the Allies would have had to come in and bomb and fight their way through it. So SA history could have been VERY VERY different, potentially.
There's a large part of SA history during WW2, that hasnt really been taught to folks in schools - but luckily has been detailed here and there in various books..
In some ways, I've often thought it might have been good if Liebrandt had killed Smuts, and the Nazi's (National Party + Ossewabrandwag) had come into power here, because the Allies would have come in, bombed and slaughtered like elsewhere in Europe - and the survivors would have picked themselves up out of the rubble and got on with living together, and now, forty - fifty years on, there would have been no Apartheid, no legacy of racial hatred - instead we'd be a 'normal' and very rich country, with multi-ethnic identity folks, making our mark on this hemisphere in a positive way.
As regards conscription - whites had zero choice during the 70's and 80's about 'choosing' to go to the army. Either grit teeth and do it, or face years of hell in a military prison. As a conscript myself, I did 2 years, and then one 3 month camp, thereafter disappearing and living under a fake name for years, in order to avoid military police grabbing me. Folks should remember that all this crap went down in the days before 'internet' and 'communications' - so everyone was on their own, there was little to no support systems for the individual who wanted to resist or hide or avoid the conscription. (There was the ECC, the 'End Conscription Campaign') but they were bugged and harassed and it was kinda dangerous to even make contact with them, if you were a soldier trying to hide from the military police.)
Point being, it wasn't an easy thing to avoid, and for the majority of folks who had no money and access to lawyers, or who hadnt even heard of the ECC - there was no choice available.
Folks nowadays are very very lucky that there's no longer a 'conscription' concept going on. It wasnt pleasant. (understatement)
One also needs to get ones head around the idea that the then SADF (and SAP) were actually just the armed wing of the National Party, enforcing the racist ideologies of the time. They werent a 'normal' Army or police force. Think back to the days of peoples doors being kicked in by the police, because the police believed that people of different races might be having sex. Not normal. 'Apartheid' was an extension of National Socialist views - nazism - racial purity, superiority.. And three years after WW2, the pro-Nazi National Party took power here, and began reshaping this country into a Hitlerian satellite state. Forty years on, no swastika's in sight, but all the core beliefs of Nazism were and are in place. Both in the opressors and the opressed. Hence this current swing round towards a new form of 'racial purity' by the ANC.
SA has a long way to go, if it manages to survive..
So should the border troops be 'honoured'? Tough decision, given what they/we were fighting for..
I'm reminded of the old poem:
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
""Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori [It is sweet and proper to die for one's country]."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulce_Et_Decorum_Est
read the full poem: http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html
/idle ramble off.. fun thoughts on a Xmas day
I'd suggest folks interested, read 'For Volk and Fuhrer'- about the boxer Robbey Liebrandt, and his travels to Germany, and return via submarine, as a potential assassin of Smuts. Large numbers of the police force at the time, had to be arrested - as pro-Nazi supporters.
This country came within inches of becoming a Nazi State - which would have required that the Allies would have had to come in and bomb and fight their way through it. So SA history could have been VERY VERY different, potentially.
There's a large part of SA history during WW2, that hasnt really been taught to folks in schools - but luckily has been detailed here and there in various books..
In some ways, I've often thought it might have been good if Liebrandt had killed Smuts, and the Nazi's (National Party + Ossewabrandwag) had come into power here, because the Allies would have come in, bombed and slaughtered like elsewhere in Europe - and the survivors would have picked themselves up out of the rubble and got on with living together, and now, forty - fifty years on, there would have been no Apartheid, no legacy of racial hatred - instead we'd be a 'normal' and very rich country, with multi-ethnic identity folks, making our mark on this hemisphere in a positive way.
As regards conscription - whites had zero choice during the 70's and 80's about 'choosing' to go to the army. Either grit teeth and do it, or face years of hell in a military prison. As a conscript myself, I did 2 years, and then one 3 month camp, thereafter disappearing and living under a fake name for years, in order to avoid military police grabbing me. Folks should remember that all this crap went down in the days before 'internet' and 'communications' - so everyone was on their own, there was little to no support systems for the individual who wanted to resist or hide or avoid the conscription. (There was the ECC, the 'End Conscription Campaign') but they were bugged and harassed and it was kinda dangerous to even make contact with them, if you were a soldier trying to hide from the military police.)
Point being, it wasn't an easy thing to avoid, and for the majority of folks who had no money and access to lawyers, or who hadnt even heard of the ECC - there was no choice available.
Folks nowadays are very very lucky that there's no longer a 'conscription' concept going on. It wasnt pleasant. (understatement)
One also needs to get ones head around the idea that the then SADF (and SAP) were actually just the armed wing of the National Party, enforcing the racist ideologies of the time. They werent a 'normal' Army or police force. Think back to the days of peoples doors being kicked in by the police, because the police believed that people of different races might be having sex. Not normal. 'Apartheid' was an extension of National Socialist views - nazism - racial purity, superiority.. And three years after WW2, the pro-Nazi National Party took power here, and began reshaping this country into a Hitlerian satellite state. Forty years on, no swastika's in sight, but all the core beliefs of Nazism were and are in place. Both in the opressors and the opressed. Hence this current swing round towards a new form of 'racial purity' by the ANC.
SA has a long way to go, if it manages to survive..
So should the border troops be 'honoured'? Tough decision, given what they/we were fighting for..
I'm reminded of the old poem:
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
""Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori [It is sweet and proper to die for one's country]."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulce_Et_Decorum_Est
read the full poem: http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html
/idle ramble off.. fun thoughts on a Xmas day
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Nanfeishen
Executive Member
Actually many of the of the first politicians of the Nationalists were also members of the O.B. (Ossewa Brandwag), J.B.Vorster and C.R.Swart to name two.
The early beginnings of the O.B. were formed around much of the hatred of the Brits for the treatment of the Boers, especially the women and children who were put into concentration camps during the Boer war, so they were not truly Nazi's, but strong nationalists, who saw a strong Germany, and were hoping for German support in ridding the country of the British. The organisation was based and gathered membership by a sense of culture and heritage, unfortunately due to their links to and support for the German cause , they are labelled alongside the Nazi's, and it was far easier for the controlling British to find them and hunt them down as "Nazi" , than as proud Nationalists.
As to constription , you could be a conscienscious objecter, jail time was three years, but the record remained on your file as a criminal record, hampering future employment, so going to the army was the lesser of two evils socially, (at the time).
Not all of the old SADF were raving apartheid lunatics, the most were simply scared frightened teenagers, snatched from their final year in school, trained to do a job and sent to the border, yes some enjoyed it , some hated it, but it is and always will remain the common bond between many men in this country, and it is this bond that those who never went through it will never understand unfortunately.
A memorial is for those who fell, fellow countrymen, no matter the cause , no matter the war , they are no longer with us , and to turn a memorial to the fallen into some political statement , or ommitting names or conflicts due to political ideology is simply a travesty, a shame and undeserving.
The early beginnings of the O.B. were formed around much of the hatred of the Brits for the treatment of the Boers, especially the women and children who were put into concentration camps during the Boer war, so they were not truly Nazi's, but strong nationalists, who saw a strong Germany, and were hoping for German support in ridding the country of the British. The organisation was based and gathered membership by a sense of culture and heritage, unfortunately due to their links to and support for the German cause , they are labelled alongside the Nazi's, and it was far easier for the controlling British to find them and hunt them down as "Nazi" , than as proud Nationalists.
As to constription , you could be a conscienscious objecter, jail time was three years, but the record remained on your file as a criminal record, hampering future employment, so going to the army was the lesser of two evils socially, (at the time).
Not all of the old SADF were raving apartheid lunatics, the most were simply scared frightened teenagers, snatched from their final year in school, trained to do a job and sent to the border, yes some enjoyed it , some hated it, but it is and always will remain the common bond between many men in this country, and it is this bond that those who never went through it will never understand unfortunately.
A memorial is for those who fell, fellow countrymen, no matter the cause , no matter the war , they are no longer with us , and to turn a memorial to the fallen into some political statement , or ommitting names or conflicts due to political ideology is simply a travesty, a shame and undeserving.
RompelStompel
Senior Member
Wouldn't have been good for S.A. if Leibbrandt had succeeded in assassinating Smuts.
Civil war would have erupted between the pro and anti-Smuts factions.
If a pro-Nazi Government assumed power in S.A. , it's doubtful that the Allies would attack S.A. over the Cape maritime route.
The Cape maritime route being the only strategic worth S.A. had during WWII.
Happy Holidays
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When did you server in the townships or on the boarder? (Unit, dates, base pls) On what do you base this statement?
On 13 April 1994 (at approx 11:00 in Thekosa) I saw sub-group in a riot of about 14 people (ANC members) - necklace, chop up (with pangas) and eat the flesh of a black (then charcoal) woman. It was filmed by the BBC. Till today I have never seen the footage on TV. Wonder if her name is on the fuc*ing wall?
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LoneGunman
Expert Member
one should remember that an Army, after all - any Army - is nothing more or less than 'a socially acceptable trained and licensed bunch of killers of mainly men - but also women and children'.
It doesnt matter who, or what war, cause or ideology.. an 'army' by its very nature, are just socially accepted (ie: seen as 'normal') killers of men, women and children.
An army does en masse, what - if an individual did in civilian life, they'd be thrown in jail for.
So I'm loath to argue for or against any official monuments, listing names of dead soldiers - regardless of 'what side they fought on' - or 'whether or not their cause was right or not' - because it continues and perpetuates the lie of assuming that an Army can ever be a decent, good, 'just' entity. And that there are 'causes' worth dying for.
As long as this Lie keeps being perpetuated, humans wont have learned anything.
Once you train people to see other people as objects to be killed - it really doesn't matter what the 'reasons' are or the 'politics' for it - down on the ground, there's no difference between them.
They're two groups of (mostly) men, killing and slaughtering each other in as efficient a way as possible.
No honour. No heroes. No difference. Both sides bleed and die, and the accidental winners (the ones who stay alive) - do their best to make sense of it all afterwards. And a tiny handful of the survivors, get to wear suits, and be put in charge of the civilian majority, and they get to build stupid memorials listing names - as if some text on a stone, can somehow make up for the utter total stupidity of the whole gory mess, and the loss of someones father, brother, child..
Nothing makes up for it, and nothing makes it better. And nothing makes it 'noble'.
It doesnt matter who, or what war, cause or ideology.. an 'army' by its very nature, are just socially accepted (ie: seen as 'normal') killers of men, women and children.
An army does en masse, what - if an individual did in civilian life, they'd be thrown in jail for.
So I'm loath to argue for or against any official monuments, listing names of dead soldiers - regardless of 'what side they fought on' - or 'whether or not their cause was right or not' - because it continues and perpetuates the lie of assuming that an Army can ever be a decent, good, 'just' entity. And that there are 'causes' worth dying for.
As long as this Lie keeps being perpetuated, humans wont have learned anything.
Once you train people to see other people as objects to be killed - it really doesn't matter what the 'reasons' are or the 'politics' for it - down on the ground, there's no difference between them.
They're two groups of (mostly) men, killing and slaughtering each other in as efficient a way as possible.
No honour. No heroes. No difference. Both sides bleed and die, and the accidental winners (the ones who stay alive) - do their best to make sense of it all afterwards. And a tiny handful of the survivors, get to wear suits, and be put in charge of the civilian majority, and they get to build stupid memorials listing names - as if some text on a stone, can somehow make up for the utter total stupidity of the whole gory mess, and the loss of someones father, brother, child..
Nothing makes up for it, and nothing makes it better. And nothing makes it 'noble'.
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The meek shall inherit the earth.
Hi LG,
That sums it up nicely.
War is barbaric and foolish.
When man stops making weapons for war and world leaders stop advocating war, we may pass another hurdle in our evolution.
Hi LG,
That sums it up nicely.
War is barbaric and foolish.
When man stops making weapons for war and world leaders stop advocating war, we may pass another hurdle in our evolution.
Skeptik
Banned
The apartheid army in Cape Town were bolstered by a very very keen bunch of 23,000 men calling themselves the Cape 'Coloured' Corps.
Say no more.
Eendrag Maakt Mag
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Yes let's remember (oh but aren't these things forgotten?) Was necklacing part of the TRC? Did the peeps above step forward?