Broadband. New Rules Offend

[Tomasz-London]

No disrespect in any way ettubrute, but how much money do you have?
Are you able to plough in millions to this worthy cause? How will your ideas lower telecoms costs in SA?!
Telkom will still control the international link and until ICASA gets authority to regulate, LLU happens and real competition enters the market we'll rediscuss these threads over and over again. Sad but true. Gatvol.

 

[ettubrute]

IS has their own international via the satellites, don't they?

 

[Tomasz-London]

Don't know if they do or not but if they do why do they still buy international bandwidth from Telkom?

 

[sunsoffun]

@ic you have hit the nail on the head

 

[JBFRobisher]

d. Does want to get into a price war

I may be mistaken but I understood that they did NOT want to get into a price war.

 

[mbs]

I'd be carefull about who you say is wrong.

Actually, I initially used a much stronger and emotive term in the heat of the moment, which was justifiably moderated by antowan - besides which, his well-known bona fides would lead one to think that he would have a more considered, focussed and consumer-centric view on the matter, as was certainly my now-shattered expectation. Par for the course, I suppose, when you represent and act as a mouth-piece for others...

 

[WarpedShadow]

So, yes, ISPs [particularly IS and ISDSL resellers] do have valid concerns about ICASA's draft ADSL regulations -

I am glad that we agree on this point at least.

Furthermore, pay-per-GB is IMO a huge step backwards for broadband in SA - if we ever hope to get affordable uncapped services from ISPs, then pay-per-GB will have to be abolished, and the pay-per-GB business models that ISPs have been forced to align themselves with [specifically by Telkodemonopoly abusing its monopoly and dictating to the market

I do not see why pay-per-GB prevents an ISP from offering an uncapped service. Remember the cost-per-GB is to the ISP, and NOT to the end customer and it is up to the ISP to manage their bandwidth and customers usage.

and since ISPs currently have no leverage against Telkodemonopoly's monopoly, very strong regulations are needed

But customers do, and customers can vote with their wallet and move to the non TelkomInternet/SAIX ISP and support IS. The more people that use IS, the cheaper it can become.

What does ICASA need to put into its ADSL regulations to allow ISPs to provide an affordable ADSL service that consumers desparately need???

I do not think we can answer that question at all. That is a question for the ISPs to answer as you have pointed out. But you imply that the ISPs are not doing anything... whereas you have very little knowedge about how ISPA runs or what is happening within the organisation as demostrated by your fly-by-night across the mailing lists. Just because they do not release a weekly update does not mean they are not doing anything.

 

[WarpedShadow]

Let me see if I can make sense of what you are saying here, Telkodemonopoly's SAIX department (since we are talking about SAIX bandwidth in this context) charges the ISP on a per GB basis for what the ISP's customers use as a whole, and you are saying that this per GB cost never gets passed onto the customers...riiight whatever you say

I didn't say it did not pass on to the customer, just that it does not have to pass onto the customer as per-usage charge. ISP can offer a flat-rate, all-the -GB-you-want, they just need to cost it that on average they make a profit.

Why not just admit that pay-per-GB actually fits your current business model, and you have no intention of providing a flat-rated service

I don't run a business so I assuem you mean "their", that being the ISPs

If you want consumers to move en masse to ISDSL, then you will have to show large numbers of consumers just why you think ISDSL is better than buttered bread, and saying bcos it is not Telkodemonopoly SAIX is not reason enough.

Hang on, I thought it was "you" (being myADSL memebrs) wanted people to move away from TelkomInternet... or are you happy to use the cheaper service and then bitch and moan about it?

Let's say every single ADSL customer switched to ISDSL tomorrow morning, who is to say that ISDSL would then be soo dominant as to be a monopoly of sorts all on its own? Even ISDSL needs competition - otherwise we simply end up with complacency and market imbalances like we currently have with Telkodemonopoly...

I never suggested that everyone should move over to ADSL. I am sure their are people who are quite happy with TelkomInternet/SAIX-VISP. But the people who think that TelkomInternet is a monopoly and ripping the country off should not be using them, they should be supporting their competitors to even it out.

If you want consumers to switch to ISDSL, then prove that your product is better than the rest.

Why must they have a better product, how about the same product? But not one that further entrenches TelkomInternet/SAIX. "My enemy's enemy is my friend" type idea.

Clearly you did not read the part where I said I was not referring to the ISPA - nice one, what else did you not pay attention to?

You still do not know how ISPA is run, and as I said, this was demonstrated by your conduct on the IOZ mailing list. There is also seemed to be this idea that ISP where on yourside, and maybe they are, or maybe they are not. But people seem to forget it not Telkom and us, But Telkom <-> ISP <-> Us.. 3 seperate groups, all wanting different things. And you got very upset when people pointed out that what is good for the customer is not necessary good for everyone.

FYI I have been subscribed to various IOZ lists for quite a while, specifically IOZ's [ADSL] and [LEGAL] lists, and I unsubscribed from IOZ's "ISP-centric" [IOZ] list a few days after subscribing - due to the attitude of your peers who saw fit to send me unsolicited and abusive emails which continued long after I had unsubscribed

You subscribed to the mailing list, and then went about attacking everyone who disagreeded with you, I would not call that unsolicited. I will agree that is not right for anyone to send abusive emails. But you jumped up and down on the list, and when people disagreeded with you, and tried to politly show you why, you left in a huff. All in all, it seemed extremly childish, and did not help your cause at all.

IMO the sender's email address needs to be masked on IOZ to prevent such spamming of people directly to their email addresses [as opposed to [email protected]].

The rest of the list members seem to have no problem putting their name to their posts.

But we have moved away from discussing the actaul article in the first post.
Which get me back to my point that ISP have different intersts to customers, and people need to realise that though we are both being screwed by Telkom, jsut whats good for us, is not necessary good for them. And that the ADSL recomendations as they are are serisouely flawed. Which is upsetting as most prob they will be laughed at by Telkom, and the rest of us will just cringe. And unfort, customers and ISP will most prob lose out if they are implemnted in their present form.

 

[mbs]

@WarpedShadow - ISP's must realise there's a basic truism that is being overlooked and which they ignore at their peril, as indeed with any business for that matter, viz. THE CUSTOMER COMES FIRST (and in its various other forms, such as 'the customer is king', 'the customer is always right', and so on). All stances and actions must be coloured by this, irrespective of whether customer perceptions are founded on factual or misguided evidence as the case may be, and sustainability/profitability of the business follows-on from this. Treat the customer right, and it will do likewise. Marketing 101.

 

[ettubrute]

mbs, fully agree! However, these days it seems the slogan has changed to "The shareholder comes first, the board second, the managers third, the employees fourth, and lastly, oh yes, we've got customers as well"

 

[TheRoDent]

Sigh. (potentially boring, and long post ahead)

I honestly think that things have gotten slightly out of hand in terms of people's personalities, views, and convictions around here -- due, no doubt to instigation by many companies, personalities, societies, convications, views and factions within the Internet industry.

I appreciate Karnaugh's and other "more conservative" views as much as I also appreciate antowan, rpm, and ic's views too. In fact I respect anyone that is willing to exchange his/her views over a beer with me

I have a "reputation" in the market due to my previous Sentech critique. My direct attitude towards people that are in my view harmful to this forum, (such as certain captin's) are well-known, but the fact is that inconsiderate bashing has never gotten anyone anywhere. I bashed Sentech. I got sent legal letters due to my approach, and I knew when it was time to give up, and when it was time to start behaving like an adult. I took critique for arranging the first meeting between a disgruntled set of users and the management team of Sentech. People thought I was selling out. In the end, it did work out well, and accomplished more than pure anger. My point is that one has to be able to recognize when you are winning emotionally, or when 'losing' is actually winning.

I backed down when it came down to dealing with the people behind the Sentech service, in lieu of establishing constructive dialogue. Did I accomplish anything? I dunno, apparently the MyADSL Broadband Report states that Sentech rocks. That was largely due to (eventually) constructive criticism. Whilst I can say that I truly _dislike_ Telkom's behaviour, I have to say that some of my best friends work for Telkom! And some of them are very skilled! Frightening? Possibly...

A lot of good mates of mine also work for Sentech, Telkom, and other ISP's too. This country is rather small when it comes to the provisioning of IP and Internet Services. As Karnaugh related once: "It's almost like the mafia". And that's true! But the internet is also a lot like a FAMILY. Of course, every family have their issues...

MyADSL has bashed Telkom. Telkom has bashed MyADSL. But MyADSL has also been very considerate and accomodating towards Telkom. I believe that rpm has made every effort in transparently accomodating many players in the market. I believe that this impartiality is what has led to MyADSL's credibility.

Telkom, unfortunately has a corporate strategy to first deny, then sow FUD, and then, finally resort to lengthy legal recourse. I believe this is what angers many users, corporates, and clients of theirs. And the fact that it's ocurring is undeniable.

I really think Telkom can learn a lesson or two, from their underdog state-owned licensee, Sentech. After all Sentech has actually managed to establish a 1500 node Gauteng school network. Telkom hasn't even bothered to comply with the "e-rate" that was ratified long ago.

It would be a sad day if we all lost what is really the focus, in my view: The betterment of internet networking in this continent. I will always applaud a philantropical effort, with a focus on bettering communications in this dark continent of ours.

I personally don't think Karnaugh should be as asinine in reflecting his personal issues with personalities on this forum, as I do believe, reciprocally that we shouldn't get as offended about his differing views.

I've had my own disagreements with Karnaugh on issues before. However, calm, or excited discussion in a private area (such as Offtopic) on a heated topic can accomplish more than flames in a general thread...

I don't believe that banning Karnaugh has accomplished anything. I'm not proposing that MyADSL offer an apology, as it has been a clash of personalities, not ideologies.

We can argue semantics all we want, lay blame, and point fingers, and point to people's blogs, and shout "aaargh you suck" as much as we want!

The fact is: The Internet Protocol is a means to accomplishing social and educational upliftment (and possible destruction). But what technology does not have it's evil side?

Let's use it for the good. Let the packets have smilies, and contain useful information. Let the accomplishments overshadow the flames. Let the IP networks of today allow us to become the Borg of the future.

Resistance is Foo-tile.

 

[ernstn]

Could not have set it better myself, Rodent.

I believe that we need to sticky his post to remind us about what is good about this board, Very often somebody new joins and just for the hell of it flames everybody and just as quickly he disappears again, having contributed nothing to the improvement of our situation. Those are the ones that action should be taken on, not the existing members like Karnaugh. We may not agree with what he has said, but he does have knowledge needed here and has made a contribution, albeit contrary!

The forum members and moderators should not let personalities enter into the picture and flaming comes from both sides, posters and moderators, though the mods have the upper hand. Everybody will remember how this forum nearly tore itself apart because of certain issues. Do not let it happen again.

Show the maturity necessary to use this great vehicle( THE FORUM) to achieve our ultimate goal.