C#/C Developer

[Genisys]

I also agree with Hamster here, asking for a current payslip is a big no no. Once things start to get very serious (past the meetings and interviews), I will consider it. Once I get the request for my payslip I just start ignoring the potential employer.

 

[Biscuit1018]

The rules are simple:
* if you are advertising a job then you post the expected salary range. My current salary/package is none of your business.
* if I approach you looking for a job you can do whatever you want with the salary.

And yes, I skip over job ads with no salary indication unless something in the title or first two lines draws me.

Done the whole time wasting thing, never again. I don't see the point in having another two or three meetings only to get to the salary part at the end and realise they want cheap labour.

This is 80% money, 20% love baby.

EDIT: oh, and if you really want me to ignore a post mention the phrase "market related". Market related means nothing unless you are saying I'm "market average".

Thanks for the feedback. I do some consulting in the space of building development competency (Sometimes opening a new dev shop) and the feedback is useful (albeit a little extreme).

Out of interest what is your primary skill? (e.g. JAVA, C# etc.)

I realise it is mainly about money.

I do have some pragmatic comments/questions (not my own opinion, it is the opinion of many companies hiring)

=> If the salary must be there would a huge range bug you?
Certain skills are in such short supply (e.g. JAVA, C#, PYTHON) so practically companies will look at taking on people ranging from a grad with little experience through to a tech whizz. The difference here could be huge.

=> Expected salary - If current salary is out of bounds then what about expected salary. If there is a huge range then you may be in the range but above what they are prepared to pay on the face of your CV?
You dont want your time wasted. The company doesn't want their time wasted.

=> Current salary - I know perhaps 50 dev shops and virtually all want to know your current salary some time in the process.
If you are a hot shot they care a lot less and focus own what it tales to get you.

=> For all our clients and many other companies I know approx. how high they will go for a particular skill. Of course I dont always know how high they would peg you.

 

[CamiKaze]

I'll definitely ignore if there is no mention of salary.

As to the jack of all trades comment, we as developers unfortunately have to wear the cap of many other professions like being a BA as well, and atm i find myself coding in. Net, java, abap and many other languages. Management pushes you into being a jack of all trades and it's not to say that you will be a master of none, imo. Being nearly everything in a company comes with being a developer.

 

[Hamster]

Out of interest what is your primary skill? (e.g. JAVA, C# etc.)

C#, Go atm

=> If the salary must be there would a huge range bug you?
Certain skills are in such short supply (e.g. JAVA, C#, PYTHON) so practically companies will look at taking on people ranging from a grad with little experience through to a tech whizz. The difference here could be huge.

Yes the range bugs me. "Dev wanted - 30k-60k depending on experience".. so basically anything. The company usually knows if they are looking for juniors or seniors.

=> Current salary - I know perhaps 50 dev shops and virtually all want to know your current salary some time in the process.
If you are a hot shot they care a lot less and focus own what it tales to get you.

Again, if I'm approached by somebody/"headhunted" then my salary is none of your business. You have a position to fill and an amount you are willing to pay. Most likely you are already inconveniencing me by asking for a CV and other admin to send to you. If I wanted a move I would've approached you guys and given you all of the info you needed to help me out. By approaching me you are asking me to leave a job I'm happy with so I'm looking for the maximum benefit and reason to leave, so why would I send them my salary and get a "10% increase" to move?

Rather ask "how much take home salary would it take for you to move".

 

[Biscuit1018]

C#, Go atm



Yes the range bugs me. "Dev wanted - 30k-60k depending on experience".. so basically anything. The company usually knows if they are looking for juniors or seniors.



Again, if I'm approached by somebody/"headhunted" then my salary is none of your business. You have a position to fill and an amount you are willing to pay. Most likely you are already inconveniencing me by asking for a CV and other admin to send to you. If I wanted a move I would've approached you guys and given you all of the info you needed to help me out. By approaching me you are asking me to leave a job I'm happy with so I'm looking for the maximum benefit and reason to leave, so why would I send them my salary and get a "10% increase" to move?

Rather ask "how much take home salary would it take for you to move".

Of course the rules for headhunting are different.
But we are talking adverts not headhunting.

If you are happy in your current job the percentage differential required is obviously greater.

We all have our bugbears I suppose. Mine is people asking about take home pay (even though I answer the question ... or Payroll does)

Virtually all companies do Cost to Company and then there are sometimes various levels of optional or mandatory provident funds .. Medical Aid is more or less the same whether optional or not.

If I am hiring a Dev I know they have maths ability.. They cant work out take-home pay?

 

[Biscuit1018]

C#, Go atm



Yes the range bugs me. "Dev wanted - 30k-60k depending on experience".. so basically anything. The company usually knows if they are looking for juniors or seniors.

<Snip>

Thanks again. I enjoy opinions. We of course often get stuck with clients that impose rules.

Companies usually know what they ideally want. Most of the companies I know though are usually looking for 2, 3 or 4 of a skill.
So an interdependency develops...
If they get a hot shot 1st they then go more junior for the others. If they get an intermediate sometimes the next one will be the same..

C#, JAVA, PYTHON - there are plenty of plodders. There are not a lot with tons of potential too be top notch (or already top notch)

Therefore the range is real...
I suppose they could advertise a couple of ranges junior, intermediate, senior. The trouble then is people get hung up on titles.
Years of experience doesn't make one senior... Being good makes you senior.

I have no problem dealing with gross salary expectations as long as the CV displays the skills and experience that justifies the salary

We need good C# in CT btw...

 

[Hamster]

They cant work out take-home pay?

The reason we ask is because some companies like to force you to make use of a provident fund. We can work out the income tax etc but not the "hidden" deductions.

 

[Biscuit1018]

The reason we ask is because some companies like to force you to make use of a provident fund. We can work out the income tax etc but not the "hidden" deductions.

Yes thats true but the Provident Fund rules are transparent

Most of my clients have multiple optional levels ranging between 5% and 15%.
Therefore the dev can choose his own level.

This will change soon given the new tax laws that allow for tax deductibility up to 25%
So I agree one should disclose the prov fund levels.. I would still prefer if the dev did his own maths

 

[Biscuit1018]

According to your experience do you receive more applications for salary stated or non salary stated?

Depends on the type of job.

Devs / Sys Admins undoubtedly prefer the salary range
However the more junior positions the salary level is not a big deal in encouraging applications
The intermediate guys are probably the trickiest...
The top end guys are less difficult but more static.

Non pure tech guys care a lot less..

The tricky part is quite a few companies dont allow meaningful ranges to be published in job ads.
If they do allow ranges they are often so wide they carry little meaning.

My advise to Devs is to focus on
- Which company - Employers know which companies build good devs .
- What kind of work you will have to do

Better be doing a challenging new dev project that pushes the envelope than doing some lame enhancements for a large corporate for more money (of course everyone has his price)

These two attributes build your CV and earning power more than anything.

 

[Kerrits]

I suppose it all depends on who you want to target with the ads.
If you want people who are currently unemployed, or unhappy where they are at the moment, these kinds of ads will work.

If you want to lure someone away from their current job when they are content, you will have to sell the job better. You will have to give them motivation of going through the motions of dusting off and updating the old CV, and sending it to you.
For me to go through the motions I will at least need to know that the area I will work from, possible remuneration and what the technologies and my responsibilities could entail (based on experience of course).

 

[Kerrits]

I suppose it all depends on who you want to target with the ads.
If you want people who are currently unemployed, or unhappy where they are at the moment, these kinds of ads will work.

If you want to lure someone away from their current job when they are content, you will have to sell the job better. You will have to give them motivation of going through the motions of dusting off and updating the old CV, and sending it to you.
For me to go through the motions I will at least need to know that the area I will work from, possible remuneration and what the technologies and my responsibilities could entail (based on experience of course).

 

[Biscuit1018]

I suppose it all depends on who you want to target with the ads.
If you want people who are currently unemployed, or unhappy where they are at the moment, these kinds of ads will work.

If you want to lure someone away from their current job when they are content, you will have to sell the job better. You will have to give them motivation of going through the motions of dusting off and updating the old CV, and sending it to you.
For me to go through the motions I will at least need to know that the area I will work from, possible remuneration and what the technologies and my responsibilities could entail (based on experience of course).

Fair enough.

Location is a no brainer

Also the type of work to be done should always be there. Mentioning the skills and experience required is one thing. The applicant is entitled to know what kind of work is needed

Pay is the tricky one because there are so many obstacles
=> Companies that dont publish in ads...
=> Companies that truly have wide ranges

=> Smaller companies that truly dont have much of a clue what they will pay.

They find who they want and then find the budget to pay them what they need to pay them
You would be surprised how many smaller companies are in this boat.
Often this kind of work is exciting stuff. Of course there is risk but the prospects of rapid advancement are there.

I know salaries sound simple but they aren't in many cases

PS -> Generally good, content Devs dont bother to apply for anything. They usually won't click on the ads.

I find that there are 'triggers' that cause Devs to put their toe in the water.
A bit of bad company news, the canning of a project, poor bonuses, retrenchments elsewhere in the org.

Companies have become better at retaining their good talent. There is less churn for the good guys

 

[cguy]

Obviously location is vital. Experience needed is also important.


I do have a question because I recruit people (but don't advertise on MyBB)

People do seem to expect accurate salary ranges.
For large companies this is easy to do because they have fixed ranges.

Smaller companies often dont have ranges.
Dev skills are in short supply so they have no idea how senior they will hire when the advertise.
So if they published a range the range would be huge and meaningless.

So how important is publishing salary ranges? Would you ignore a good advert if there was no indication of salary?

It's not a "good" advert if it doesn't have a salary range. . I would never seriously consider an advert or recruiter/head-hunter e-mail, without some indication they can afford me. This is obviously not as much an issue if you're trying to hire junior guys, but for an employed senior developer, no range, just screams "waste of time". I don't care about the size of the range, since I get that a company can be open to the full range of junior to senior hires, but I do care about whether or not they can afford to improve on my current income (or at least not hurt it too much, if I want to leave for a non-pay related reason).

I also don't mind "compensation level isn't a problem", but the company has to be damn sure they know what they're talking about. . I've had a few of these - once, it was a problem. Lol!

I also don't mind disclosing my salary - but will only do so after I have an indication that they are able to pay what I am looking for. I actually prefer companies that push for this, since (having been on the other side of the table), I consider this to be a vital piece of information, when making hiring decisions. Companies that ignore this are likely making suboptimal hiring decisions.

 

[Biscuit1018]

It's not a "good" advert if it doesn't have a salary range. . I would never seriously consider an advert or recruiter/head-hunter e-mail, without some indication they can afford me. This is obviously not as much an issue if you're trying to hire junior guys, but for an employed senior developer, no range, just screams "waste of time". I don't care about the size of the range, since I get that a company can be open to the full range of junior to senior hires, but I do care about whether or not they can afford to improve on my current income (or at least not hurt it too much, if I want to leave for a non-pay related reason).

I also don't mind "compensation level isn't a problem", but the company has to be damn sure they know what they're talking about. . I've had a few of these - once, it was a problem. Lol!

I also don't mind disclosing my salary - but will only do so after I have an indication that they are able to pay what I am looking for. I actually prefer companies that push for this, since (having been on the other side of the table), I consider this to be a vital piece of information, when making hiring decisions. Companies that ignore this are likely making suboptimal hiring decisions.

Thanks for the feedback.

I was a developer .... ages ago. I appreciate that technology and generations have changed since those days.

Disclosing salary - Most companies insist. Very few dont. The exception is sometimes when the CV is so hot that they cant resist.. Even then most times HR will insist pre-offer

Disclosing ranges - I agree ranges are needed. Sometimes they will be wide. Or have multiple ranges.

I do notice a trend in people not always considering other factors when going after a job
- The kind of work you are going to do. Good employers assess what kind of work you have done. They want to see what you contributed to a project. They dont want to see your job description because that just says what HR says you do.

GEt the right experience and the salary will be no hassle in the future. Its a money now vs money later argument. Sometimes you are lucky and you get both.

 

[cguy]

Thanks for the feedback.

I was a developer .... ages ago. I appreciate that technology and generations have changed since those days.

Disclosing salary - Most companies insist. Very few dont. The exception is sometimes when the CV is so hot that they cant resist.. Even then most times HR will insist pre-offer

Disclosing ranges - I agree ranges are needed. Sometimes they will be wide. Or have multiple ranges.

I do notice a trend in people not always considering other factors when going after a job
- The kind of work you are going to do. Good employers assess what kind of work you have done. They want to see what you contributed to a project. They dont want to see your job description because that just says what HR says you do.

GEt the right experience and the salary will be no hassle in the future. Its a money now vs money later argument. Sometimes you are lucky and you get both.

I am generally happy to disclose pre-offer, but I would need to see if the range covers what I would want first. I consider it fair if the company doesn't think I'm worth the top of their range and offers me less than this (assuming it is inline with my target compensation of course). I see the range as being a mechanism that simply saves everyone a bunch of time.

 

[animal531]

Obviously location is vital. Experience needed is also important.


I do have a question because I recruit people (but don't advertise on MyBB)

People do seem to expect accurate salary ranges.
For large companies this is easy to do because they have fixed ranges.

Smaller companies often dont have ranges.
Dev skills are in short supply so they have no idea how senior they will hire when the advertise.
So if they published a range the range would be huge and meaningless.

So how important is publishing salary ranges? Would you ignore a good advert if there was no indication of salary?

I need a reason to look at your recruitment posts:
1. Is the company interesting? Usually companies aren't named, so this is a difficult hook; but at least work at letting the readers know what field/specialities are at play
2. Location. This acts as more of a filter than a hook, I'm just going to ignore postings in locations I don't desire, but if it's a better location than my current job then I might have a look
3. Technology. This should be a hook, but 95% of postings all look the same anyway. Work needs to go into making the post at least somewhat unique/visible
4. Salary. This is both a filter and a hook. If you're posting with a small salary I'll just ignore the post, if it's decent or better it becomes a hook. Without a salary I have no idea what's going on, am I just wasting my time on someone that's going to have me over for 5 interviews and then lowball me with a 1/2 my current salary offer?

I'm also going to lose interest if it feels as if the company/recruiter didn't put much effort into the post. Skipping over any of the mentioned points will push any post into the negative category.

 

[Biscuit1018]

I need a reason to look at your recruitment posts:
1. Is the company interesting? Usually companies aren't named, so this is a difficult hook; but at least work at letting the readers know what field/specialties are at play
2. Location. This acts as more of a filter than a hook, I'm just going to ignore postings in locations I don't desire, but if it's a better location than my current job then I might have a look
3. Technology. This should be a hook, but 95% of postings all look the same anyway. Work needs to go into making the post at least somewhat unique/visible
4. Salary. This is both a filter and a hook. If you're posting with a small salary I'll just ignore the post, if it's decent or better it becomes a hook. Without a salary I have no idea what's going on, am I just wasting my time on someone that's going to have me over for 5 interviews and then lowball me with a 1/2 my current salary offer?

I'm also going to lose interest if it feels as if the company/recruiter didn't put much effort into the post. Skipping over any of the mentioned points will push any post into the negative category.

Thanks guys for being constructive.
The info is great and confirms my beliefs.
I jumped on this thread to get your opinion and I am glad I did.

One last question - What Job Portals do you like? C24, CJ, PNET? Others?

My company owns a recruitment company (as well as solutions and consulting operations).

Devs are a unique breed (i mean that mainly positively)
The good ones are in short supply
The decent ones are also not easy
The mediocre to poor ones ones are a dime a dozen

Most of what you guys say is dealt with in our job ads.

However there are areas where we can improve our ads.
a) We focus a lot on the technology and type of work hook. But we could be better. Our ads are often too long and has all the boring stuff in it that you guys dont give a toss about. Our ads could be a lot shorter and to the point

b) Salary ranges - More than half our dev ads have salary ranges but that isnt enough. We always know the budgetary ranges but we are often barred from publishing. We could work harder to convince our clients to let us publish them

c) Type of company - We have that covered pretty well but could always be improved

d) Location - We have that covered. City and rough area of the City are always there. I know some people wont commute to some places.

I can promise that I will launch a project on Tuesday to improve our job ads a lot.
We can get 70% of the way there quite quickly. The rest takes some time. Most of the work is in Content Management but there are some tech hooks we have to fix. Our CRM publishes to Portals automatically

 

[Kerrits]

d) Location - We have that covered. City and rough area of the City are always there. I know some people wont commute to some places.

It's more than that for me. For example if the offices are within 5 min walking distance of a Virgin Active and I can go during lunch time, I would be much more willing to work in the CBD/Sandton than I otherwise would be.

The same with flexi time.

Time is money and just like time working, time in traffic is time I don't have for other stuff.

Mediocre devs are a dime a dozen, and also the ones most likely to be on the lookout for a new job after they didn't get the increase they were looking for due to poor performance. They are the ones most likely to respond to an advert without a salary range specified.

Just for interest sake, the last time I changed jobs a recruiter contacted me because they found out about the retrenchment. I told him what I would like, and he got me a job. I chose the place with slightly less pay due to the location.

 

[Biscuit1018]

It's more than that for me. For example if the offices are within 5 min walking distance of a Virgin Active and I can go during lunch time, I would be much more willing to work in the CBD/Sandton than I otherwise would be.

The same with flexi time.

Time is money and just like time working, time in traffic is time I don't have for other stuff.

Mediocre devs are a dime a dozen, and also the ones most likely to be on the lookout for a new job after they didn't get the increase they were looking for due to poor performance. They are the ones most likely to respond to an advert without a salary range specified.

Just for interest sake, the last time I changed jobs a recruiter contacted me because they found out about the retrenchment. I told him what I would like, and he got me a job. I chose the place with slightly less pay due to the location.

Thanks.

Flexi time we disclose. The exact rules we dont because the rules are often a tad fluid

At advert time the exact location (like street address) cant be disclosed because clients don't permit it.
We do give suburb level info. So Sandton, Rivonia, Bryanston, Fourways, CBD.... that level we disclose at advert time.

It can be disclosed either via email or over the phone once the potential applicant has expressed interest
In fact once the person makes contact and identifies himself/herself, no information is held back.

We could add fields for
- Close to gyms, close to shops etc. - Probably need to think through those attributes because everyone wants something different

Agree with your comments about the more mediocre devs

Another question => I am thinking of adding a chatline (effectively an instant message hook). Would you consider that over an email?

 

[Kerrits]

Another question => I am thinking of adding a chatline (effectively an instant message hook). Would you consider that over an email?

One of those little chat popups that doesn't require additional registration or other info? Yup, I could see myself asking for more info with that.