CCMA / Labour Lawyer

[Piesank]

Piesank, what do you mean when you refer to EE and ER?

Also, what is your background in the subject? Do you practice in labour consultation?

Sinbad is correct/

I work as a labour consultant for an employers organization - think of it is a trade union for employers.
I'm not a lawyer.

 

[Ancalagon]

In any case, I don't see why you can't just ask if you can record the meeting.

In most such meetings, minutes are taken anyway. In fact, I would not surprise me if in most cases, the ER themselves record the meeting to protect themselves. So why not, as the EE, record the meeting? I am not saying do it without consent. Ask them and then do it, and if they get shirty, ask them what they have to hide.

I personally think Dolby was right to approach a labour lawyer, because knowledge of the law and your rights is hugely important. Yes, obviously the labour lawyer wants to make money, but I'm not so pessimistic as to believe he would recommend that Dolby do something that is against Dolby's interests purely so the lawyer can make a buck. Not everybody is so self centred and greedy. Dolby knowing what he can and cannot do is very helpful.

I mean, things like what you have to sign and what you do not have to sign. If he signs first and asks a labour lawyer later, he could get himself into huge k*k. By then he has already signed it and it is binding.

 

[MickeyD]

In any case, I don't see why you can't just ask if you can record the meeting.

In most such meetings, minutes are taken anyway. In fact, I would not surprise me if in most cases, the ER themselves record the meeting to protect themselves. So why not, as the EE, record the meeting? I am not saying do it without consent. Ask them and then do it, and if they get shirty, ask them what they have to hide.

I personally think Dolby was right to approach a labour lawyer, because knowledge of the law and your rights is hugely important. Yes, obviously the labour lawyer wants to make money, but I'm not so pessimistic as to believe he would recommend that Dolby do something that is against Dolby's interests purely so the lawyer can make a buck. Not everybody is so self centred and greedy. Dolby knowing what he can and cannot do is very helpful.

I mean, things like what you have to sign and what you do not have to sign. If he signs first and asks a labour lawyer later, he could get himself into huge k*k. By then he has already signed it and it is binding.

At my ex-company the S.O.P. was that the person chairing the meeting (enquiry or appeal) was responsible to organise the recording as well as a secretary, who was present in the meeting and would later transcribe the entire meeting's proceedings.

This transcription would then be made available to ALL parties ASAP.

In Dolby's case he should have asked whether the company was following a similar process as above and, if not, he should then have asked permission to record the proceedings himself.

IMO this whole issue has escalated way out of control. From being a relatively simple warning it is now a situation where his services could be terminated (by either party).

 

[Dolby]

What you guys dont understand is that the ER is reacting to what OP has done - the CCMA issue

But that's my right?
So they're objecting to my right as an employee?

They can't sort it out internally at the grievance process and surely I'm within my right to request CCMA mediate the mediate? I'm they were so adamant that what they'd done and how much of a case they had, they would have no objection to CCMA and mediation?

However, they rather offered me a new position with a different manager ...

 

[The_Unbeliever]

Employees also have rights.

If the company does not follow SOP, where can the emplyee go then?

 

[Dolby]

IMO this whole issue has escalated way out of control. From being a relatively simple warning it is now a situation where his services could be terminated (by either party).

Correct.

It is all about ego.

As a new GM - remember this started 3 months after she started - she feels she needs to demonstrate her superiority and prove her worth to the others. Now, she has a junior kicking back and that infuriates her ... so she goes on and on. I kick back further as I have very little option. She will win - that's a given.

But I don't see why I should lie down and simply take the blows. The end result is going to be the same.

 

[Dolby]

This transcription would then be made available to ALL parties ASAP.

They don't do that here.

I asked over and and over again and they refuse. They say it is his personal notes and all he has to hand out is outcome. The reason I asked is because in warning #2, they had the addition 'Swore at GM, threw pen and displayed gross insubordination' signed by the witness. When I said that didn't happen, the GM said she agreed with witness - it happened.

During the appeal when the witness was asked outright whether he swore at the GM, she said 'no, just in general at the situation. I wanted to get the notes and get that in writing - but they refuse.

 

[Ancalagon]

For what it is worth, I agree with you Dolby. The mere fact that they offered you a position in exchange for you dropping the CCMA thing is.... worrying.

Think about it - if they were "right", and you were a terrible employee, why offer you a new position? Flip you would think they would be doing all they can to get you out. And if you were a terrible employee, then they would have nothing to fear from the CCMA. They could prove how bad you were, that they tried to help you improve, and you were stubborn and obstinate. CCMA would throw the book at you.

What is the latest?

EDIT: Bring the above up (about the witness and refusing to record meetings) up at your CCMA hearing. I bet the CCMA will be very interested to hear things like that, especially if you can get the witness to testify.

 

[Dolby]

but if you look at the first page in this thread he was advised to keep his head down - which seemed like the best advice at the time

It doesn't work like that.

The smallest tiniest issue will mean I get a warning. Wrong dress code, 5 o clock shadow, customer requesting something from me, personal banking or even worse, an outright lie. Remember they're LOOKING and trying to construct a case. HR admitted they have a 'Dolby' file ...

I could give you a number of incidents they just ASSUME I've done something wrong and bulldoze into me (in front of people) pulling the story apart for days with mails flying while they can find my error. I'm proved right .... and they wait until the next incident to do the same.

 

[Dolby]

What is the latest?.

The date for CCMA is setup - I said I won't pull until they give me the new position in writing. They have't yet - and actually retracted the offer the other day because they thought I going ahead with CCMA. I said if I get what I want (ie to move away) then there is no reason to go to CCMA. My desired outcome was move away anyway.

I don't for a second think they'll lave me alone - I have another manager, but she still reports to the GM. The new manager will be a buffer - but the GM still has the ego and wants me out. I'm just possibly buying time

 

[Ancalagon]

I personally don't think that accepting a new position will help much. Your new manager may shield you for a bit I suppose. But with that GM in charge, who is obviously a toxic, bitter, self centred person, the culture and vibe of the company will quickly become poisonous.

Maybe if they were to offer you that new position in writing, you could take it up to give yourself more breathing room to find a new job. But I would not see it as a long term solution.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Yeah I don't see moving to another manager/position really benefiting you with the same HR residing over it all.

Just benefits them in making the CCMA go away and then they can nail you later.

 

[Dolby]

My only options are :

1. CCMA - possible 3 or 4 months pay until February. Blip on my CV and good chance I'll be unemployed, as finding a job at the end of the year isn't super easy

2. Accept position in writing - Things should be slow the next few months and it'll buy time. The GM - as you said - still has her agenda, but I think I can buy more payslips this way.

Once I get dismissed, I will take that to CCMA as well after the disciplinary hearing, buying even more time. So, if they come to me January and could only leave March.

 

[Dolby]

Just to visualise :

On a time line, you can clearly see the major events that happened in a short space of time. The block is when officially was my manager, so you'd see warning #1 and warning #2 she wasn't even my manager.

warning #3 she asked the other GM to give to me, as it shows no visitation or harassment on her side because she can claim she had nothing to do with it.

B was when her friend in HR was employed - so HR isn't much help to me as they're working with said GM. But the main thing I wanted to show is this personal vendetta in the last few months after she started.

I've also put simple organogram. For those that didn't undertstand warning #1, this should help. Sales people everything and as a product person, you need to fight to get them selling your product. So regarding training, it was product to train sales - in other words, an opportunity given to me and communicate a message. However I was told that sending the invites/agenda out was my responsibly and if I didn't, they'd take my opportunity away and give it to another product.

I didn't send an invite out and management should have nominated another brand, as per instruction. She never did that either - but rather than admit she was wrong a few months into her role, she dumps all blame on me.

 

[The_Unbeliever]

They don't do that here.

I asked over and and over again and they refuse. They say it is his personal notes and all he has to hand out is outcome. The reason I asked is because in warning #2, they had the addition 'Swore at GM, threw pen and displayed gross insubordination' signed by the witness. When I said that didn't happen, the GM said she agreed with witness - it happened.

During the appeal when the witness was asked outright whether he swore at the GM, she said 'no, just in general at the situation. I wanted to get the notes and get that in writing - but they refuse.

So, in other words, no SOP for that company.

 

[MickeyD]

 

[The_Unbeliever]

^ 'strue Bob!

 

[Dolby]

So, in other words, no SOP for that company.

They're about 90% there - but what they'd doing to me is falling within the 10% they have no clear process or procedure. For what it's worth, they're changing all codes and policies now. Officially they say new HR just decided - but unofficially it's because they've realised with my situation.

 

[The_Unbeliever]

Question : Can a company implement new policies without the employees being aware of said policies?

 

[Dolby]

Question : Can a company implement new policies without the employees being aware of said policies?

No idea. But in mine, they're using the old policies on me ; and as they launch new policies getting employee to sign