CCMA / Labour Lawyer

[Dolby]

It still is a real 3rd party - their labour consultant isn't employed by your employer and charges them a fee for this service

It's a bias 3rd party that has been incorrect my own appeals before. I have no reason to trust they wouldn't do the same yet again. They approach the employer (who has them on retainer) to ask what result they'd like and gears towards it. They're never fair and they look after the employer interests. CCMA IMO is far more fair process with a true neutral person and if there was nothing to worry about - the company would have no issue with it?

OP is going for a constructive dismissal - he cannot prove that there was no recourse if the employer was willing to do a mediation and he ignored going there and instead went to the CCMA

I'm no going for constructive as it is difficult to prove ; I'm going for everything else wrong.

 

[Dolby]

Which is not a good thing as the consultant can be biased - if he'she delivers an unfavourable verdict, will the company re-use his/her services again?


Naaah, best to get somebody that will be totally impartial.

Exactly my point.

I'm not referring anyone to CCMA and actually still following their process, which they should have no issue with. I have beened burnt by the consultant they select

 

[Piesank]

Which is not a good thing as the consultant can be biased - if he'she delivers an unfavourable verdict, will the company re-use his/her services again?


Naaah, best to get somebody that will be totally impartial.

If the consultant is biased they must still be able to defend their decision at arbitration - the consultant wont give the ER any advise that he isnt prepared to face at the CCMA - that is why the ER is going for this mediation.

Who will be 'totally impartial'?
If OP isn't happy with the results/solution in the mediation he can still go to the CCMA for unfair labour practice.

I have told him what the ER will do then.

 

[Dolby]

If the consultant is biased they must still be able to defend their decision at arbitration

Well, they were biased as expected.

Here's another update : the day before the hearing MD came to me with a possible solution of moving me to a sales role, away frmo my GM. I said I was open to it but wanted to see it on paper (as target, comm changes etc)

Yesterday we have the hearing and again, they bring up the same possible solution - to move me into a role I don't report to psycho GM. So I go to HR to ask about putting the solution in writing and getting 'we've thought about it ... we'll only offer you this on condition you retract your CCMA case'

Firsly, blackmail is horribly wrong and unethical of the company - but secondly, think I'm entitled to ask them to retract me warnings as I have a new role? Otherwise, the result is I'm sitting a FWW with little rights and at the mercy of the company ...

 

[ToxicBunny]

Well, they were biased as expected.

Here's another update : the day before the hearing MD came to me with a possible solution of moving me to a sales role, away frmo my GM. I said I was open to it but wanted to see it on paper (as target, comm changes etc)

Yesterday we have the hearing and again, they bring up the same possible solution - to move me into a role I don't report to psycho GM. So I go to HR to ask about putting the solution in writing and getting 'we've thought about it ... we'll only offer you this on condition you retract your CCMA case'

Firsly, blackmail is horribly wrong and unethical of the company - but secondly, think I'm entitled to ask them to retract me warnings as I have a new role? Otherwise, the result is I'm sitting a FWW with little rights and at the mercy of the company ...

Record all conversations with HR... you won't get any of this in writing from them, but they will try this kind of crap with you and its not ethical or legal (if you ask me).

 

[Dolby]

They'll never let me record

But I fully agree with you. I understand that the LRA and CCMA has very little impact on trying to get an employee out of the company as most employers know how to abuse the system.

Yesterday I was made to look like a total fool by the GM. She made up stories and lies that the neutral consultant didn't bother asking for proof. He said my grievance wasn't justified and was placed at the wrong point in the system. He said it was a knee jerk reaction to them disciplining me and called me obnoxious ....

He didn't bother reading what I'd printed out and let her interrupt me, but if I said she was lying he'd shoot me down. He told me the GM could have done much worse to me but she's supporting me and helping me by not doing it.

Warning me I should have been out already and I put through serious allegations to the GM.

Very fair

 

[ToxicBunny]

They'll never let me record

But I fully agree with you. I understand that the LRA and CCMA has very little impact on trying to get an employee out of the company as most employers know how to abuse the system.

Yesterday I was made to look like a total fool by the GM. She made up stories and lies that the neutral consultant didn't bother asking for proof. He said my grievance wasn't justified and was placed at the wrong point in the system. He said it was a knee jerk reaction to them disciplining me and called me obnoxious ....

He didn't bother reading what I'd printed out and let her interrupt me, but if I said she was lying he'd shoot me down. He told me the GM could have done much worse to me but she's supporting me and helping me by not doing it.

Warning me I should have been out already and I put through serious allegations to the GM.

Very fair

No recording, no meeting. Period.
But you are not legally obliged to inform them from the way I understand the law.

As for the Consultant behaving in that way... that is unacceptable behaviour from a labour consultant and needs to be dealt with as well.

 

[Dolby]

This was a mail trail that I said she doesn't believe me and 2nd guesses everything, paraphrased of course :

GM : Have you sent this invite?
Dolby : Yes
GM : When? Who?
Dolby : This morning to x, y and z
GM : So if I didn't remind you, then what?
Dolby : You didn't remind me.These are the steps that lead to it being sent today before you remind (list of steps)
GM : I disagree
Dolby : Maybe we have a misunderstand. These are the steps (list of steps in more detail)
GM : No misunderstanding. Your steps are incorrect
Dolby : Should we arrange a meeting with ALL parties involved?
GM : No, you present to me if you want

 

[Dolby]

For lying, I brought up the warning where she said she EMAILED ME INSTRUCTION THAT I DIDN'T READ. I also brought up the fact that both HER and the WITNESS SAID I SWORE AT HER. Then, witness took this back a few weeks later and I SWORE AND NOT DIRECTED>

This shows someone lied somewhere - but when I brought this up, it went to 'she could have dismissed you ... she was kind she didn't actually charge you ... that's a serious allegation you've made'

Also, she says 'I only gave Dolby 1 of the 3 warnings ; the others had nothing to do with me. Not sure why his grievance is with me' However, she instructed someone else to give a warning on her behalf so she doesn't look to be picking on me.

She denied this - and when I proved it to her because I know someone that heard her, she went to 'well those are confidential meetings ; I'm going to speak to our legal department about people speaking outside of them'

Neither her or the consultant acknowledged lying

 

[Dolby]

.

Tell you what, I know many people have issues with their boss and expectations, and there are bosses that twist facts - but never in my life have I seeing lying and blackmail

 

[crackersa]

shoulda taken the sales position. sometimes you just run to live to fight another day.

 

[Dolby]

shoulda taken the sales position. sometimes you just run to live to fight another day.

I'm considering.

They only told me about it at 16:30 on the 03 November and asked if I'd be open to it. Then in the official hearing with a mediator, it was brought up again. After 17:00 yesterday, I heard it was conditional .... but no one has come to me at all since then.

Only thing is it effectively says 'we have a solution that we'll give you only if you waive your rights' which isn't cool. Management still hate me and it means they can come in January and issue for another late email and dismiss me.

 

[Venomous]

No recording, no meeting. Period.
But you are not legally obliged to inform them from the way I understand the law.

As for the Consultant behaving in that way... that is unacceptable behaviour from a labour consultant and needs to be dealt with as well.

yip,

last I heard OP (is not the employer), an employee is not obliged to tell the enployer that s/he(employee)o is recording a conversation.
This enables an employee to protect themselves.
The employer must inform staff if they intend to record...

(I could be wrong, but that is my layperson understanding)

 

[Dolby]

Oh that is interesting !

 

[The_Mowgs]

You do NOT have to inform anyone of a recording but that is ONLY true when you are part of the conversation that is being recorded.

 

[Piesank]

No recording, no meeting. Period.
But you are not legally obliged to inform them from the way I understand the law.

yip,

last I heard OP (is not the employer), an employee is not obliged to tell the enployer that s/he(employee)o is recording a conversation.
This enables an employee to protect themselves.
The employer must inform staff if they intend to record...

(I could be wrong, but that is my layperson understanding)

You do NOT have to inform anyone of a recording but that is ONLY true when you are part of the conversation that is being recorded.

If you record a conversation and dont inform all parties and they consent it may not be used as evidence at Arbitration - the ER will object to it. . .

As for the Consultant behaving in that way... that is unacceptable behaviour from a labour consultant and needs to be dealt with as well.

What you guys dont understand is that the ER is reacting to what OP has done - the CCMA issue.
The consultant may have been correct in stating that OP has been lucky not to be dismissed. 3 offences all related to the performing of duties could be grounds for dismissal.

I dont know the rest of the details of the mediation so wont comment on that. My last bit of advice to OP would be to google before taking any of the """"advice"""" in this thread.

 

[The_Mowgs]

If you record a conversation and dont inform all parties and they consent it may not be used as evidence at Arbitration - the ER will object to it. . .



What you guys dont understand is that the ER is reacting to what OP has done - the CCMA issue.
The consultant may have been correct in stating that OP has been lucky not to be dismissed. 3 offences all related to the performing of duties could be grounds for dismissal.

I dont know the rest of the details of the mediation so wont comment on that. My last bit of advice to OP would be to google before taking any of the """"advice"""" in this thread.

If you are going to dispute the """""advice""""" could you atleast point us in the right direction. So the OP should not listen to other people but only to you?

 

[Piesank]

If you are going to dispute the """""advice""""" could you atleast point us in the right direction. So the OP should not listen to other people but only to you?

If you look at some of the advice given in this thread you will see people telling OP to run to the CCMA - before exhausting all internal remedies
They also advised OP in getting a labour lawyer - who either charges a fixed fee or gets paid on a win basis - which will cost the EE in the end because then they dont back down because it means no fees to them.
Then they say after internal mediation is held by an obviously bias 3rd party mediator that he should run to the CCMA
They also say that he should record meetings without the consent of the other party (invading their privacy) and present that to the CCMA.

All of this is bad advice in my opinion - that is all that is my opinion - as I'm in the minority who is to say I'm right?

OP is now "going for everything else wrong" which may mean that he wants the CCMA to rescind the warnings he has received, according to my knowledge OP did the misconduct but it wasn’t applied fairly/consistently. I dont know what relief he wll get from the CCMA - if any - but then the ER will probably issue him with a warning for any other missteps from him.

It is a ripple effect - both parties reacting and it is escalating - the mediation could be the ER trying to bury the hatchet or enforcing their position if there is a constructive dismissal.

So OP does not have to listen to me - he can choose which advice he wants to use, but if you look at the first page in this thread he was advised to keep his head down - which seemed like the best advice at the time. Now it is about damage limitation because the ER has reacted and covered its bases.

 

[Ancalagon]

Piesank, what do you mean when you refer to EE and ER?

Also, what is your background in the subject? Do you practice in labour consultation?

 

[Sinbad]

Ee is employee.
Er is employer.