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Question of the Day: Do you think Bafana Bafana will win tonight?
CHANGE NEEDED: Start a career in PROGRAMMING.
- Thread starter maximus@123
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Why?
I suspect starting out in VB at this stage could hurt your CV. People reading the CV will wonder why you picked VB and not C#.
Poor sods.
That one can't be in a senior position without a degree.
<![SoUL-rEapER]>
Active Member
I highly suggest learning JavaScript + HTML/CSS if you are just starting out at programming. This is a really good choice for application/web development. I have created many awesome apps with JavaScript and HTML. I am currently working on my own game development projects in JavaScript using the gamvas and enchant frameworks. The possibilities are literally endless, only if you have something called a 'brain' and creativity. Making a transition to C++ and Java shouldn't be a major one. Since Javascript is considered as a client-side language, it will execute directly from a clients computer and NOT from a server. So anything REALLY REALLY processor intensive would not be recommended (like large applications). Then you would need something like PHP or Java. But I highly recommend that you do Javascript. C++ is commonly used in stand-alone desktop application and is not suited for internet programming and web apps. Your Operating system is most probably built in C/C++, including anti-virus software. It's commonly used in system software as well as utility programs. A common use is also in games. C++ is used to create intensive, high-end 3-D games. C# and Java are used in web apps and web development and can also be used to create stand-alone apps. Another good language which is coming back is Python - I heard that Python is having a major impact in Electrical Engineering and Embedded Electronics. But the programming field in constantly changing. Today C# might be high in demand and tomorrow it might be Python. If you want to focus on web application/web development I suggest doing an I.T course at Unisa. If you want to be an all-rounder I suggest you do a Bsc Computer Science course (be prepared for some math). Hope this helps. Good Luck!
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Emmm, not sure if I agree. I think it is always best to first learn a general purpose programming language to learn the fundamentals of programming, before diving into special purpose languages like JavaScript.
<![SoUL-rEapER]>
Active Member
Learning JavaScript @ Unisa won't hurt that much, since DOM, DHTML are completely ignored in ICT1512 (JavaScript). There is another module ICT1511, which I have no idea about, but is intended for beginners - and is not a pre-requisite to ICT1512. But to be quiet honest, I come from a background of no programming at all - not even CAT at high school - but still managed with Javascript. However, I did HTML prior to JavaScript which I highly recommend (trust me, or learn the hard way). So as a start-off I would recommend JavaScript or maybe even Visual Basic. The OOP is not too hard - compared to other langauges.
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Retic
Active Member
My story is much the same.. went to college.. on a scholarship.. the 4 year course tought me much on the concepts and basics of information tech. Especially loved the system analysis and design.. after the course I had 2 small desktop support jobs... was lucky on the last. Had a mentor helping me.. took to c# and now im a jnr C# developer.. working to getting better.. learning a bunch. So my advice.. papers are great at getting you recognised.. practice and persistence keeps you there.. good luck.
Javascript is one of the worst languages to learn as a beginner. Not knowing anything about programming in general, and then throwing in js's essentially asyncronous structure, is not a recipe for success.
Javascript is confusing as hell.
I am an expert level backend/enterprise developer. In the last 2 months I had to create a single page app in pure js. It was tough to get started. ( of course I am now a javascript machine
)
Maybe if your goal is to be a js developer only, then ok, but hardly any lessons learnt in javascript translate to more traditional languages like c#/java.
Javascript is confusing as hell.
I am an expert level backend/enterprise developer. In the last 2 months I had to create a single page app in pure js. It was tough to get started. ( of course I am now a javascript machine
)Maybe if your goal is to be a js developer only, then ok, but hardly any lessons learnt in javascript translate to more traditional languages like c#/java.
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That's true. Lessons learnt in Java or C (++/#/whatever) can usually be carried across to most other languages..
Hamster
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Javascript is one of the worst languages to learn as a beginner. Not knowing anything about programming in general, and then throwing in js's essentially asyncronous structure, is not a recipe for success.
Javascript is confusing as hell.
I am an expert level backend/enterprise developer. In the last 2 months I had to create a single page app in pure js. It was tough to get started. ( of course I am now a javascript machine
Maybe if your goal is to be a js developer only, then ok, but hardly any lessons learnt in javascript translate to more traditional languages like c#/java.
This. I myself am an enterprise developer and have had to help out with students in the past - loosely typed languages are rubbish for learning. You want something where the compiler can tell you "hey idiot, you made this dumbass mistake over here - fix it".
JavaScript doesn't even support class structures (not unless you use a framework like jQuery or prototype). And why for your first language would you want something so temperamental as JavaScript/CSS anyway? If the browser looks at it funny it breaks.
If you want to learn start with C# or Java, build your console apps and then move to the GUI ones.
And for the love of everything digital, the next person to recommend VB will get an internet PK sent to them.
Agreed, please do not recommend Basic.
I would suggest, pick one of Java, C#, Python or Ruby.
For starting from scratch, I am fairly impressed with this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Learn-Program-Second-Facets-Ruby/dp/1934356360/ref=sr_1_17
I would suggest, pick one of Java, C#, Python or Ruby.
For starting from scratch, I am fairly impressed with this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Learn-Program-Second-Facets-Ruby/dp/1934356360/ref=sr_1_17
<![SoUL-rEapER]>
Active Member
In case you haven't noticed, JS has a debugger tool which comes standard with many major browsers. I don't understand why people bad-mouth the capabilities of JS. It is the best programming language to start out at. It's OOP and other structures are fairly easy. With respect to the comment on classes, Yes, we know that JS does not have classes. But it does have Constructors, serving a similar purpose as classes. We also know it does not have class-oriented inheritence, but it does have protoype-oriented inheritence. Also, many say that JS cannot have private variables and private methods WHICH IS NOT TRUE. JS can have private variables and private methods. Also, JS supports classical inheritance, as well as other code reuse patterns as well. It is proven that many people feel that JS is only for 'Amateurs' which is not true, since many people who start out at JS have no programming background. Since the first version of JS was poorly constructed, there is a stigma attached to JS - a lesson learnt that first impression does count. But the main REASON: There are to many books which explain JS very poorly, and will make you tear your hair out! If you know how to use the language (firstly, by getting hold of good sources) you will notice the capabilities of JS. As I mentioned previously, today C# might be common, tomorrow it might be python (at this point C# lovers should be on an active hibernation period, waiting for it to spring back). That is why I suggest doing a certified I.T or Computer Science diploma/degree. Many have cursed the Python language, which is now being used as a standalone environment in micro-controllers. Ever since then, Python critics have been hiding away: http://www.python.org/about/success/carmanah/
Also the syntax of JS and C++ are very similar. Especially conditional executions, functions (with exception to the void function and return types) and data structures (with exceptions). A gentle touch on object oriented programming will give you an overall idea of what OOP is all about - a simple OOP approach, which is not too difficult to interpret.
Another thing I forgot to mention in my previous post is that JS is a general-purpose programming language.
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SoUL-rEapER, I also use JS daily and I do agree with most of what you are saying
But, for learning, I agree with Hamster and would advise anyone to rather start with something stricter and learn how to do things "the proper way" and then progress on to "loose" languages.
Personally, I think we're going to be seeing a heck of a lot more apps and websites done with only javascript, for both the backend and frontend coding. (stuff like nodejs, express, angular, phonegap, etc)
<![SoUL-rEapER]>;11623777 said:
But, for learning, I agree with Hamster and would advise anyone to rather start with something stricter and learn how to do things "the proper way" and then progress on to "loose" languages.
Personally, I think we're going to be seeing a heck of a lot more apps and websites done with only javascript, for both the backend and frontend coding. (stuff like nodejs, express, angular, phonegap, etc)
<![SoUL-rEapER]>;11623777 said:
I am not saying it is a bad language. I think it is a good language for what it is supposed to do. I just think it is a bad language for learning to program. Firstly, because one's first programs should be simple things around learning about variables, control statements and classes etc, which while possible in JS using things like node.js, it is not the natural roots of the language. Secondly, it implements many programming concepts in non-standard ways, as you have listed. I believe it is best to learn the standards first, then learn the exceptions for each language, for overall long term ability to learn many programming languages.
<![SoUL-rEapER]>
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I would assume that he is taking reference to JS debugging features
There was a hint of that, or maybe I was just a little paranoid
<![SoUL-rEapER]>
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OK. I can clearly see that I am the weakest link of this debate, since there is a majority against JS as an introductory language and I will accept and respect that. One of the good points mentioned was that it is loosely typed and would not be considered as a good programming language to teach at an introductory level. But to add my last bit, when you start out at any language (non-programming context) you will first speak in a nonsensical manner. As you gradually get a feeling for the language you will learn new syntax and new structures, which would also take time, before you can be an expert orator.
Hamster
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<![SoUL-rEapER]>;11627545 said:
The comment regarding the compiler is with regards to some loosely typed language's errors only being picked up at run time. Only at runtime will you pick up that you are passing in a string instead of a date/int/whatever which usually involves irritating debugging. With C#/Java etc. you'll get a clear error message when you compile. Less frustrating and because of that less "alienating" to devs.
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Mike Hoxbig
Honorary Master
Scripting languages are generally seen as supplementary skills anyway. Nobody (at least that I'm aware of) is hired as a JS expert, but rather as a developer who might have experience in writing JS scripts.