China - Taiwan Developments

Mystic Twilight said:
It's an internal matter within a previously single nation that's been split, by default it is meddling even if invited (same as the people calling for cape independence asking the un and other foreign entities to intervene in propping up and recognizing cape independence). Normally intervention with the intention of keeping the peace is a good idea, the basis of the un peace keepers, however in the case of the usa we have seen historically the usa only intervenes for their own interests (otherwise for example the drc would have been "intervened" directly, amongst other civil wars, if the usa was only motivated for world peace), and the recent track record with the usa leaving after direct intervention hasn't been great. The usa rocking up with a fabulous army ready to sacrifice their lives for your defense is the same as china rocking up with a fabulous generous monetary loan, it's not from some sincere goodwill and charity, but there is probably a hidden underlying self serving interest.
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I have no doubt that most of what the US does is motivated in some way by self-interest. I think democracies are generally more stable and better for the people living in them.

Mystic Twilight said:
If this was a married couple, some people think taiwan is trying to get help from a marriage/divorce counselor while others think taiwan is busy sleeping around with the counselor and friends. Though in the beginning the parties involved (ccp/ktm) were busy abusing each other.
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That analogy is doing some really heavy lifting... :cool:

Mystic Twilight said:
It's not the age of the person, its the position they hold and represent. A mayor from some backwater town in nebraska isn't going to affect anything, the speaker of the house is a different story. Sure, the speaker isn't functionally powerful like the president in the executive, but being the vice-vice president in the presidential succession instills a high level of [perceived] authority.
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Fair point, but if Taiwan didn't want her to visit, they could have withdrawn the invitation, surely it's no one else's business who they invite to visit their country?
 
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Mystic Twilight said:
I personally think having taiwan becoming independent shouldn't be such a big deal for china, but then given the whole five eyes operation driven by the usa it wouldn't be surprising for the usa to install military bases and missiles in taiwan, and then you have the whole cuban missile crisis on repeat.
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The Cuban missile crisis was caused because the USSR didn't have long range missiles. The US has and has no reason to install nukes in Taiwan nor Europe for that matter.
 
pinball wizard said:
Why is the (so-called) West's overt Imperialism better than something else? It's peachy for 'Murica to whip up tension and meddle in the affairs of a sovereign nation? Like they did in Afghanistan? Worked out well there, did it? Or Vietnam? Or Iraq?
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Afghanistan was a 60 nation coalition legalised by the UN. Why do you simps always say it was the US only?
 
Nicodeamus said:
No one is pretending the CCP is a democracy. But to provoke a military response from them is idiotic.

We are able to have more than two thoughts in our heads here.
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So the exercises the CCP PLA is going to hold in Taiwan's territorial waters are not a provocation then?
 
Cray said:
Fair point, but if Taiwan didn't want her to visit, they could have withdrawn the invitation, surely it's no one else's business who they invite to visit their country?
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Except only the top people/people in power in government invited her, not the whole of taiwan (there could be some argument regarding representation in a democracy),

If you read here,

www.theguardian.com

Mood shifts in Taiwan as Nancy Pelosi visit raises fears of war

Stoic, often fatalistic population paid little attention to talk of House speaker’s visit – until it was confirmed
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

there is a split between welcoming and not welcoming her, and if you are able to read chinese there are chinese media providing evidence of a people supporting and being against the visit, here is a poll showing a majority against her visit, use google translate,

udn.com

udn 網路投票箱 | 聯合新聞網

udn 網路投票箱讓關心時事議題的你，快速表達個人意見，了解網民氛圍
udn.com udn.com

I can't say how well representative it is statistically for the overall population, but there are notable elements of support that is both for and against, so it's inaccurate to say taiwan as a whole was open to her visit. A comparison can be drawn with the tutu/dalai lama visa issue, though the issue is inverted with the anc government declining the visit and the people [generally] allowing it.
 
Mystic Twilight said:
Except only the top people/people in power in government invited her, not the whole of taiwan (there could be some argument regarding representation in a democracy),

If you read here,

www.theguardian.com

Mood shifts in Taiwan as Nancy Pelosi visit raises fears of war

Stoic, often fatalistic population paid little attention to talk of House speaker’s visit – until it was confirmed
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

there is a split between welcoming and not welcoming her, and if you are able to read chinese there are chinese media providing evidence of a people supporting and being against the visit, here is a poll showing a majority against her visit, use google translate,
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Again, that's how free democracies work, if she meets all the legal requirements of being a visitor to the country then she should be allowed in.. Unless, of course, the Taiwanese government determines that her visit is not in the best interests of the country.

Mystic Twilight said:
I can't say how well representative it is statistically for the overall population, but there are notable elements of support that is both for and against, so it's inaccurate to say taiwan as a whole was open to her visit. A comparison can be drawn with the tutu/dalai lama visa issue, though the issue is inverted with the anc government declining the visit and the people [generally] allowing it.
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Very few countries have direct democracy, elected officials are voted in to make the best choices they can without having to run a referendum on every issue. If the Taiwanese people really didn't like Pelosi being allowed in, they will make their displeasure felt by voting out their representatives at the next election.

Most people in this country did want the Dalai lama to visit, but clearly it's not enough of an issue to affect ANC support.
 
Cosmik Debris said:
The Cuban missile crisis was caused because the USSR didn't have long range missiles. The US has and has no reason to install nukes in Taiwan nor Europe for that matter.
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It was an example, and the military technology and doctrine has changed tremendously since then. I also think you are incorrect regarding the ussr long range missiles, the ussr had perfectly capable icbm (R-36 is one such example, operational range up to 16 000km) that could launch from russia to strike the usa (quick google check distance from moscow to washington dc is 7800km), hence the MAD doctrine. Not sure if there was something else you were trying to refer to. Anyway the actual missiles is not the point, the point being is the force projection and proximity, the usa will equally protest if today russia or china setup a military base in cuba or the bahamas.
 
Nicodeamus said:
He is one of America's most experienced diplomats and also responsible for mediating the settlement between Namibia and SA.
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He is not a diplomat. He was a diplomat. The SADF had to pull his asre out of the fire his settlement caused in Namibia. Has been. No longer relevant.
 
Cosmik Debris said:
Absolute rubbish. You quote a single activist with extreme views but not the vast majority of Hawaiians that want to remain with the US.
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You spoke to actual Native Hawaiians or just Yanks who live there claiming they are now Hawaiian?
 
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