dlk001
Executive Member
Yes, it has been corrected to "Umthatha".
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Colonialist naming practices were skin-deep
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Yes, it has been corrected to "Umthatha".
Skeptik
Banned
I've corrected your spelling.
Xhosa was purely a spoken language when their tribe migrated South and settled in Southern Africa and encountered Europeans.
The Europeans helped them write dictionaries based on the spoken (phonetic) pronunciation. The first was into Norwegian (?) I believe. Therefore any spelling used was always a compromise.
You can hardly blame a 17th Century missionary for spelling Umthatha as 'Umtata'. There isn't much point in taking such an anal example anyway
. Personally they sound so similar as to be the same - and a complete waste of money changing them. If the original Xhosa expert had a speech defect, why blame the entire English community dlk001
Executive Member
You can hardly blame a 17th Century missionary for spelling Umthatha as 'Umtata'. There isn't much point in taking such an anal example anyway
"Umthatha" and "Umtata" don't sound the same.
"Tabo" and "Thabo" don't sound the same.
They are not English words.
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NoRulez
Senior Member
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Well put...I've corrected your spelling.
Xhosa was purely a spoken language when their tribe migrated South and settled in Southern Africa and encountered Europeans.
The Europeans helped them write dictionaries based on the spoken (phonetic) pronunciation. The first was into Norwegian (?) I believe. Therefore any spelling used was always a compromise.
You can hardly blame a 17th Century missionary for spelling Umthatha as 'Umtata'. There isn't much point in taking such an anal example anyway
Then why does "apartheid" in Afrikaans sound the same as "apartheid" in English and the same as "apartheid" in German and the same as "apartheid" in Xhosa and the same as "apartheid" in isiXhosa and the same as "apartheid" in whatever language you want, except for the mispronounciation due to accent differences? Hell even the spelling is exactly the same when using the accepted western alphabet...
dlk001
Executive Member
Then why does "apartheid" in Afrikaans sound the same as "apartheid" in English and the same as "apartheid" in German and the same as "apartheid" in Xhosa and the same as "apartheid" in isiXhosa and the same as "apartheid" in whatever language you want, except for the mispronounciation due to accent differences? Hell even the spelling is exactly the same when using the accepted western alphabet...
Indeed, if you pronounce "Umthatha" and "umtata" using an English accent (as an example), they sound the same.
But, they are not English words.
In isiXhosa, the do not sound the same and hence have a different meaning. In fact, "umtata" has no meaning whatsoever.
This is why it needed to be corrected.
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chiskop
Executive Member
There isn't much point in taking such an anal example anyway
This whole diversion was started by your insistence that we use the "correct English" form of isiXhosa - yet the obvious misspelling of a place name is anal?
chiskop
Executive Member
chiskop
Executive Member
Relax Bobby. It is ridiculous to call the pointing out of an misspelt place name anal, while insisting on the a particular English use of the name of a language. Yes, it may be "proper" to refer to the language Xhosa on an English forum in the English form. But the name of the language is isiXhosa and the repeated nitpicking and insistence on the English usage is anal. The fact that you ignored what I was saying and responded only to that is anal.
I understand and even accept your point about the English use of the word. But if you or I had 2c for every instance where English wasn't correctly applied here, we'd both be very rich indeed.
Just let it go.
I understand and even accept your point about the English use of the word. But if you or I had 2c for every instance where English wasn't correctly applied here, we'd both be very rich indeed.
Just let it go.
dlk001
Executive Member
[quot
dlk001
Executive Member
What part don't you understand?
I said "In isiXhosa, the do not sound the same and hence have a different meaning. In fact, "umtata" has no meaning whatsoever."
Why would you phonetically present it in English, if it was not English. Further, how do you phonetically present the word Xhosa (English word according to you ) in English if there is no such phonetical sound in the English language. Which is the acceptable pronunciation? Is it Khoza or Xhosa? If it's Khoza, why then do you still spellit as Xhosa? Am I suppose to say Khoza as well even if I have no problem pronouncing the clicks and the s sounds?FFS.if you had to phonetically present it in English, how would you spell it in English? Would it be closer to Umtata or Umthatha. Note the emphasised th (and bear in mind how TH is pronounced in English vs other languages). You can spell it whichever way you want in your language, but don't expect people to pronounce it the "right" way when spelled exactly the same in English. Different phonetic rules apply. Therefore spellings (expectedly) change.
dlk001
Executive Member
FFS.
I don't see the necessity for "FFS". Relax please!!!
Yes, I'm indeed aware how "th" is pronounced in English. My name starts with "Th". For some reason, more than 90% people in SA and when I'm overseas get it right the first time. I don't expect people to pronounce the right way first time. I will not write it the wrong way either. Those who get it wrong learn. My name without the "h" would have a different meaning or no meaning to it. That also applies to the word "umthatha".
I have not argued about "umthatha" and "umtata" in English. I said in isiXhosa they do not have the same meaning/pronunciation and that is why the correction had to be made.
dlk001
Executive Member
That would be chaotic. I can imagine trying to read IP addresses on road signs while driving.
at least no one would argue about it then...
Not really starting an argument with you but why are French words or names pronounced and spelled the 'French way' in English dictionaries? Don't you think there are double standards applied?... if you had to phonetically present it in English, how would you spell it in English? Would it be closer to Umtata or Umthatha. Note the emphasised th (and bear in mind how TH is pronounced in English vs other languages). You can spell it whichever way you want in your language, but don't expect people to pronounce it the "right" way when spelled exactly the same in English. Different phonetic rules apply. Therefore spellings (expectedly) change.
Skeptik
Banned
isiXhosaagain ..
Ignorance is bliss!
How is umtata an obvious misspelling? Who spelt it that way in the first place. You will not find this word in the dictionary.This whole diversion was started by your insistence that we use the "correct English" form of isiXhosa - yet the obvious misspelling of a place name is anal?
I was told by an expert in Xhosa that the majority cannot even speak their own language properly. Hmmpf!
Flogging a doff horse ..
You let it go.
Do I call German Deutch ... NO!
Deutch is not an English word, but German is. Geddit now?????????
Do you call French Francais ... NO!
Do you call Dutch Hollands ... NO!
Do you call Russian Russkii ... NO!
How many examples do you need?
Rikus
Banned
dlk001
Executive Member
I doubt that expert is initiated.
Will this be the same expert that lead you into thinking:
"For some reason, black people regard themselves as belonging to one big family".
Skeptik
Banned
What. Do you mean that he didn't have his foreskin chopped off with a rusty razor blade whilst traipsing naked through the undergrowth painted with white chalk?? That's a different topic.
Where does the expression "Sister" and "Brother" come from then in various countries in relation to people of the same black hue?