Colonialist naming practices were skin-deep

BobbyMac said:
According to my Oxford English Dictionary, 2005 edition, isiXhosa is not an accepted English word. Xhosa, however, is. So unless the word was added in since to the dictionary, it is not accepted as an English word.
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Is it an English word? Does it make sense to refer to the Oxford dictionary for the correct spelling of the a word that is not English?
 
Bageloo said:
Is it an English word? Does it make sense to refer to the Oxford dictionary for the correct spelling of the a word that is not English?
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To nip the anticipated African logic in the bud, the answer is YES!

If one is speaking English, an English dictionary is the recommended reference. Should one be speaking German, then I suggest a German dictionary.

In English, we do not refer to German as 'Deutch', so there is no precedent for using 'isiXhosa' or 'isi' anything in that context. Debating the matter is futile.
 
BobbyMac said:
"isiXhosa" is not an English word - not yet anyway. Not until it's actually accepted into the Oxford English Dictionary. Until then the few people on the planet actually splicing it in between other English words are doing so at their own risk :D

Incidentally, new words are added to the Oxford English Dictionary quite frequently. The word "google", for example, was added not so long ago. To quote their website:

I am fortunate to own the dictionary on CDROM. The full print version (the latest version being the Second Edition but a new print version is currently in the works) comes out in no less than 20 printed volumes. Some people own a compact Oxford English Dictionary which is quite a thick single printed volume, but obviously devoid of most of the historical and etymological background knowledge imparted per word.

Now that we've derailed rather emphatically, let's get back to the topic, up until the word is accepted into the Oxford English Dictionary as an English word, scholars and academics will not accept the word as English.
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Makes me wonder why certain Africanist zealots continue to print these missspellings in national newspapers and on certain forums :rolleyes: .
We need the British Council to stand up to them :D .
 
Skeptik said:
Makes me wonder why certain Africanist zealots continue to print these missspellings in national newspapers and on certain forums :rolleyes: .
We need the British Council to stand up to them :D .
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You will allways get them... they want to "White mans Magic" .. like a Dictionary and a written language - but then they dont want to use the dictionary when its convenient for them. Its pure arrogance. (The Chip on the shoulder syndrome)
 
In Xhosa (assuming this is the correct and accepted English word meaning "isiXhosa"):

1. English person is iNgesi.
2. English people are amaNgesi.
3. English language is isiNgesi.

What would be the reverse in accepted English?
 
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BobbyMac said:
Umtata/Umthatha is a place name (proper noun) and as such not necessarily subject to the rules of universal language acceptance. Also, most place names all over the world are actually not translated into other languages. But all this aside, what is your point?
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Wasn't making a point but rather wondering where "umtata" comes from. At school, in my home language, a student would get a red pen over that word with a proper spelling "umthatha".
 
BobbyMac said:
In English, according to my dictionary, the word remains Xhosa for all three. It is not unusual either, Japanese being the most notable example.
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In the South African context, however the variation "IsiXhosa" is also just as acceptable. Local people might use this variation more because that's the one that makes more sense to them. Since English is no longer exclusive to the English (even this sounds stupid), there is absolutely nothing wrong with expanding on the local version. The Oxford dictionary will have to keep up or forget about being the authority on English.

What good is the dictionary if there are words that are in use and yet it does not have them?
 
Bageloo said:
In the South African context, however the variation "IsiXhosa" is also just as acceptable. Local people might use this variation more because that's the one that makes more sense to them. Since English is no longer exclusive to the English (even this sounds stupid), there is absolutely nothing wrong with expanding on the local version. The Oxford dictionary will have to keep up or forget about being the authority on English.

What good is the dictionary if there are words that are in use and yet it does not have them?
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Who says so?? Please quote your source (not Wiki).
Just because the ignorants use the wrong spelling does not entitle you to change the language at a stroke. Try telling this to the French and "Oo La La, eina".:eek: See what they say about it.

There is such thing as a SA English dictionary - which I do not own because it is much the same as the British one. If you want your word included, then write to them instead of just arrogantly using the wrong one in the faint hope it might get accepted.

dlk001 said:
Taken! However, I see that "http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/xhosa?view=uk" has "Xhosas" in it.
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Plural of ExHoser.
 
BobbyMac said:
I'm certainly not willing to get into this argument now, as it will be a very long and arduous one. But to skirt the issue briefly, here's the main reason why this is not a good idea: slang. Colloquialisms are obviously quite extensive in respective regions, but by definition remains particular to such a region or to communities in these regions. It would therefore be both impractical (just from a logistical point of view to name one) and detrimental for the language purity to just add these words formally to the English language. Spoken English has become quite diverse, and I think it's extremely important that all the diversifications only impact the main Language if and when they are globally understood.

New words that contribute to the evolution of the English Language will be taken up into the OED sooner, as by their nature they've become meaningful entirely in their own right, often despite their 'slang' beginnings. As a case in point, the word "google" refers. But seriously, isiXhosa really is relevant only to a very small minority in real world terms, so I doubt that it deserves any space in the OED. Notwithstanding that the word itself is in fact a badly formed word as "isi" as a prefix holds no value in English.
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If it is slang let it be added as such.
Xhosa without "isi" is like Engl without "ish" denoting the langauge. Surely the English rules should apply even on words that are borrowed.
But anyway, according to the English Language Academy of Southern Africa, we should never correct errors in someone's English.
 
BobbyMac said:
:D
South African English is fast evolving into a bastard language of note :)
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That's to be expected for a language whose speakers a mainly second langauge speakers, no big deal really unless you are a British descendant.
 
BobbyMac said:
Where is your proof of this? Xhosa is the accepted English word - isiXhosa is not. What's so difficult to understand here?
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Just because the Oxford scribes made the mistake should not be an excuse for all of us to follow.
 
Names within our own country

South Africa's rich and diverse history.

Check out the NAAIRS database on just about any town in our country.
Search for Maps, Town Plans etc.
Visit the National Archive Repository which has this information and take the time to sit and page through history in front of you.
Personally I find it fascinating.

Discovering the Complete History of South Africa is a far cry from the current train of thought prevalent in today's society.
 
Bageloo said:
Just because the Oxford scribes made the mistake should not be an excuse for all of us to follow.
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A similar mistake (not necessary by Oxford) has been made with "Umtata". "Umthatha" is derived from "thatha" meaning "take". The city was named after "mthatha" river. The word "thatha" was used because the flooding of the river took lives. "Umtata" has no meaning in Xhosa or isiXhosa.
 
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dlk001 said:
A similar mistake (not necessary by Oxford) has been made with "Umtata". "Umthatha" is derived from "thatha" meaning "take". The city was named after "mthatha" river. The word "thatha" was used because the flooding of the river took lives. "Umtata" has no meaning in Xhosa or isiXhosa.
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Isn't it now being renamed to Mthatha?
 
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