Confiscating fake notes

[boxerulez]

Unfortunately the law is not on your side... You may believe that you did not pass it knowingly, but how do the cops know that.
And what happens if they arrest you anyway? You get to sit in jail for a few nights trying to explain this to them and waiting to speak to your lawyer?
I would rather not take that chance dude. I know you take this very seriously, that is why you should do your best to ever avoid this from happening again.
You were fortunate this time, but they could have very easily decided to call the police if they were a meaner group of people or less clued up.
Making a scene over it just makes them more aggro with you and they might decide to "take you down a peg" by calling the police.
I know they were in the wrong here. They should have refused it and you should have left, but this could also have very easily ended up different.
You read about people being arrested all the time, and it doesn't have to be a lot...
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...counterfeit-r200-notes-1.1835045#.VTul1S6AvxA

Does not matter its on them to prove you knowingly passed it on.

 

[Swa]

If a note is clearly illegal and only one such note has been presented, any sensible store would mark the note and return it to the customer for a replacement note. Or offer to dispose of the note before doing so.

You don't need a PhD and Large Hadron Collider to see whether or not a watermark is present.

You are still not qualified. Remember this is the country where legal banknotes lose their security strip. That doesn't make them counterfeit.

 

[Bryn]

You are still not qualified. Remember this is the country where legal banknotes lose their security strip. That doesn't make them counterfeit.

We're obviously talking about cases where the note is clearly fake. A missing security strip won't affect the watermark.

 

[Swa]

We're obviously talking about cases where the note is clearly fake. A missing security strip won't affect the watermark.

What's clearly fake? There are a lot of tools out there that would call it a fake when it isn't. You are simply not qualified and are encouraging an illegal practice here.

 

[LazyLion]

Does not matter its on them to prove you knowingly passed it on.

Sitting in jail for 48 hours on a false charge matters very much to me.

 

[boxerulez]

Yes but its not like they can arrest you on suspicion...

 

[Bryn]

What's clearly fake? There are a lot of tools out there that would call it a fake when it isn't. You are simply not qualified and are encouraging an illegal practice here.

Can you not apply any of your thinking to the real world? Obviously if a note is suspicious or damaged but not clearly fake, it will be returned and you'll be asked to substitute another. If a note is clearly fake, and the fake notes I'm aware of coming across are very clearly fake, then there is a moral duty to mark the note as such before requesting the replacement. Most stores would probably hand the note back just to avoid further responsibility for it. You seem to presume that notes will be marked or punched at the slightest suspicion.

If more than one such note has been presented, then things are a bit more serious and further action might be deemed necessary by some stores.

 

[Swa]

Can you not apply any of your thinking to the real world? Obviously if a note is suspicious or damaged but not clearly fake, it will be returned and you'll be asked to substitute another. If a note is clearly fake, and the fake notes I'm aware of coming across are very clearly fake, then there is a moral duty to mark the note as such before requesting the replacement. Most stores would probably hand the note back just to avoid further responsibility for it. You seem to presume that notes will be marked or punched at the slightest suspicion.

If more than one such note has been presented, then things are a bit more serious and further action might be deemed necessary by some stores.

Seems you're the one not thinking in terms of the real world. Some tools will do so with notes they suspect are fake but aren't. A court would not accept your layman judgement so neither will I. That most stores would just hand it back is actually a good thing and it's the correct thing as most calls are probably false.

On the subject of more notes it's also illegal to confiscate them. The correct legal thing to do is to call the police while you stall the customer.

 

[Bryn]

Seems you're the one not thinking in terms of the real world. Some tools will do so with notes they suspect are fake but aren't. A court would not accept your layman judgement so neither will I. That most stores would just hand it back is actually a good thing and it's the correct thing as most calls are probably false.

On the subject of more notes it's also illegal to confiscate them. The correct legal thing to do is to call the police while you stall the customer.

As I said, most fake notes are fake beyond the point of contention. Anything less wouldn't be treated the same way.

You seem to be misunderstanding my position. Any note that is a professional counterfeit is not going to be marked by a store - firstly because it might not be counterfeit and secondly in case it turns out to be valuable to investigators who might analyse it.

You're painting very broad brushstrokes in this matter, and it's not even a matter worth discussing. Stores already respond appropriately to fake notes. Even if a store over reached, I doubt they'd ever be fined for reducing the quantity of counterfeit currency in circulation.

 

[Swa]

As I said, most fake notes are fake beyond the point of contention. Anything less wouldn't be treated the same way.

You seem to be misunderstanding my position. Any note that is a professional counterfeit is not going to be marked by a store - firstly because it might not be counterfeit and secondly in case it turns out to be valuable to investigators who might analyse it.

You're painting very broad brushstrokes in this matter, and it's not even a matter worth discussing. Stores already respond appropriately to fake notes. Even if a store over reached, I doubt they'd ever be fined for reducing the quantity of counterfeit currency in circulation.

You seem to have a high regard for your own abilities and that of your workers. Unfortunately the courts and I don't. Just please do us a favour and put up a notice at the premises so I don't risk my cash with you.

 

[GazWrack]

Which section of the FICA empowers you to confiscate notes you suspect to be counterfeit?

I'd really like to know this too, as well as what makes a business a financial institution.

Which law gives you that right? The one you referred to says not to accept fake currency but it doesn't give you the right to confiscate it. That is your own interpretation.

We are required to implement measures to combat money-laundering. In order to do so, one of the measures we implemented when it comes to fake / dye-stained currency is to confiscate it whether the offending note is obviously or merely suspected to be stained or fake (this applies to suspicious notes found in our cashier floats). Once the note is evaluated by a FICA committee and if it is found to be legal currency, that money is then returned to the owner.
So we don't just take the note and tell the customer to bugger off.

You continue to ignore that you are neither qualified nor authoritative to determine "fakeness" so at the time you won't be confiscating just a piece of paper but what's regarded as currency.

The SARB had an advertising campaign, "Know Your Money" - They want you to be qualified to determine if money is fake.

The question is, was the confiscation done on reasonable grounds.
If I examine a note and come to the conclusion that it's fake because of missing features etc. then that is a valid conclusion. (unless a court finds otherwise)
I then have reason to confiscate it. But, not just confiscate it, but also to report the incident and hand it to the authorities - otherwise I would be defeating the ends of justice. It would only become theft if I use or attempt to use that note to buy something.

The CPA makes provision for any private individual to arrest and seize property under certain conditions in order to stop / prevent a crime (etc. etc.). But, again, those actions need to be explained and justified. Failing to justify an action whereby you deprive a person of his freedom or property, then yes, it would be a crime.
Which is why, in reality, people should not run around playing policeman.

FlashSa makes the point that he would not feel comfortable confiscating suspicious notes because of a perceived threat to his safety - I accept that he needs to protect himself.
I am merely stating that simply turning a blind eye is wrong and illegal.

Are you trying to teach me now what notes are fake? Guess you didn't get the gist of my post.

Just making sure you have no excuses.

 

[LazyLion]

Yes but its not like they can arrest you on suspicion...

If one of your notes actually turns out to be fake then it won't be suspicion.

 

[LaraC]

About 5-6 years ago, there was a guy selling R100 notes for R50. Used to buy up "R5000" at a time just for restaurants, pubs, etc. He disappeared after a few months.

It would be justice if you get scammed out of your money for supporting a criminal and passing along fake notes.

 

[boxerulez]

If one of your notes actually turns out to be fake then it won't be suspicion.

Being in possession is not the crime though. Knowingly distributing and passing along counterfeit money is,

And they have to have proof of that...

But yeah... the police does not follow the law all the time.

 

[bwana]

We are required to implement measures to combat money-laundering. In order to do so, one of the measures we implemented when it comes to fake / dye-stained currency is to confiscate it whether the offending note is obviously or merely suspected to be stained or fake (this applies to suspicious notes found in our cashier floats).

While I understand that you're obligated to implement "measures to combat money-laundering" you neglected to answer my question which was which section of the FICA empowers you to confiscate notes you suspect to be counterfeit? Not just from your cashiers but from individuals.

Once the note is evaluated by a FICA committee and if it is found to be legal currency, that money is then returned to the owner.
So we don't just take the note and tell the customer to bugger off.

If you "confiscate" what turns out to be a legitimate note you are guilty of theft. Do you think returning that money at your leisure absolves you of that?

 

[LazyLion]

Being in possession is not the crime though. Knowingly distributing and passing along counterfeit money is,
And they have to have proof of that...
But yeah... the police does not follow the law all the time.

If one of your notes is fake and you actually passed it, then they are going to have all kinds of questions for you. Where did you get it from, do you know that person, when did you become aware it was fake, etc?
Despite being innocent until proven guilty, they are going to assume that you knowingly passed it until you can prove otherwise to them. And all of this will be done while you are sitting in the police station.
The SAPS knows that The Reserve Bank will put a lot of pressure on them to get to the bottom of counterfeiters.

 

[Former member 61586]

So what stops a store from taking your money. Saying its fake. And pocketing it?

 

[Swa]

We are required to implement measures to combat money-laundering. In order to do so, one of the measures we implemented when it comes to fake / dye-stained currency is to confiscate it whether the offending note is obviously or merely suspected to be stained or fake (this applies to suspicious notes found in our cashier floats). Once the note is evaluated by a FICA committee and if it is found to be legal currency, that money is then returned to the owner.
So we don't just take the note and tell the customer to bugger off.

Dodging the question...

The SARB had an advertising campaign, "Know Your Money" - They want you to be qualified to determine if money is fake.

The question is, was the confiscation done on reasonable grounds.
If I examine a note and come to the conclusion that it's fake because of missing features etc. then that is a valid conclusion. (unless a court finds otherwise)
I then have reason to confiscate it. But, not just confiscate it, but also to report the incident and hand it to the authorities - otherwise I would be defeating the ends of justice. It would only become theft if I use or attempt to use that note to buy something.

The CPA makes provision for any private individual to arrest and seize property under certain conditions in order to stop / prevent a crime (etc. etc.). But, again, those actions need to be explained and justified. Failing to justify an action whereby you deprive a person of his freedom or property, then yes, it would be a crime.
Which is why, in reality, people should not run around playing policeman.

FlashSa makes the point that he would not feel comfortable confiscating suspicious notes because of a perceived threat to his safety - I accept that he needs to protect himself.
I am merely stating that simply turning a blind eye is wrong and illegal.

No sorry, the question is are you qualified to determine if money is fake. The court says you're not despite the SARB's advertising campaign towards laymen. I am not saying you should turn a blind eye but the only action the law allows you to legally take is to inform the police. I would also like to see this provision of the CPA and what it says exactly as it's about consumer goods and services and doesn't give you extra powers to act as the police and go and take people's property.

Just making sure you have no excuses.

I am not qualified. Simple as that.

If one of your notes is fake and you actually passed it, then they are going to have all kinds of questions for you. Where did you get it from, do you know that person, when did you become aware it was fake, etc?
Despite being innocent until proven guilty, they are going to assume that you knowingly passed it until you can prove otherwise to them. And all of this will be done while you are sitting in the police station.
The SAPS knows that The Reserve Bank will put a lot of pressure on them to get to the bottom of counterfeiters.

For packs of notes yes. For single notes there's reasonable doubt and a reasonable person can't be expected to answer all questions. While I understand that police can question someone they can also be guilty of false arrest for arresting someone on charges that will likely not stick in court.

 

[Swa]

I am not qualified. Simple as that.

Btw. that site also lists "Security thread." Since a number of official SARB notes lost their security threads I can only assume the information there isn't valid.