Confiscating fake notes

[cr@zydude]

Where I work, if we get a counterfeit or dye-stained note, we are obliged to confiscate it, take the customer's details, record the details of the note, and hand them a copy of that document which also serves as a receipt. That note then gets submitted to a FICA committee for further investigation.
If they had given the note back to you, that would be the same as passing illegal currency.
That SARB piece you quoted; it says that the cashier should refuse to accept the note(s) - which they did. It does not say "hand it back to the customer".
Did they take your details and record the details of the note / transaction? Did they hand you a receipt for the note?
If not - that would be rather dodgy. Because someone who works there could then steal that note and use it elsewhere.

There was no paperwork for the rejection. Which was part of the problem. Not only do I not get to see the note, but I don't get anything to prove that they took it.

So you are happy to go and sit in jail for 48 hours?
I never said you would be convicted... the being arrested part is bad enough alone.

No, I wouldn't like to be in jail, but that doesn't mean that I would simply have given up on the issue.

Besides, looking at the OP's attitude, he would probably have argued with police too. This may have had a bad ending, him probably being towed behind a van to the police station and getting 48 hours he will never, ever forget!

Yes, I've been told that I am a horrible person to deal with, but when it comes to being a small client of a big supplier being pushy seems to be the only way to get things done.

 

[LazyLion]

Good luck with that dude, don't phone us for bail money!

 

[biometrics]

Good luck with that dude, don't phone us for bail money!

Fake notes will probably pass at SAPS/courts.

 

[LazyLion]

Fake notes probably originate at SAPS/courts.

FTFY.

 

[FlashSA]

If they had given the note back to you, that would be the same as passing illegal currency.

No sir, that is called payment rejection. Just like when a customer's card in your CC machine fails to transact, you can return it and refuse to try it again even if they insist.

The business should have rejected the note and asked the OP to provide another legal note. Only a bank or a legal authority can confiscate or destroy a fake note.

If I confiscated a fake note from a customer in our shop they would f%ck me up! Why the heck should I put myself at physical risk? Reject the note and move on....

If a customer gave me a whole wad of fakes, I would call the cops as this is a different story. 1 note in a whole wad is in no way indicative of intent - person is most likely unaware it is fake!

 

[bwana]

Hi guys, I had an issue with a wholesaler yesterday. While paying the cashier told me that one of the R100 notes was fake.

How did she know? Was it an obvious fake or was she trying to score a hundred rand note?

AFAIK no individual, outside of law enforcement, has the right to confiscate your money even if they suspect it is counterfeit.

 

[cr@zydude]

No sir, that is called payment rejection. Just like when a customer's card in your CC machine fails to transact, you can return it and refuse to try it again even if they insist.

The business should have rejected the note and asked the OP to provide another legal note. Only a bank or a legal authority can confiscate or destroy a fake note.

If I confiscated a fake note from a customer in our shop they would f%ck me up! Why the heck should I put myself at physical risk? Reject the note and move on....

If a customer gave me a whole wad of fakes, I would call the cops as this is a different story. 1 note in a whole wad is in no way indicative of intent - person is most likely unaware it is fake!

Thanks that was why I offered anoter R100 straight away. There was no intent on my part. It was a mistake, as I think the GM eventually understood. He still kept claiming that the law says he needs to take the note.

How did she know? Was it an obvious fake or was she trying to score a hundred rand note?

AFAIK no individual, outside of law enforcement, has the right to confiscate your money even if they suspect it is counterfeit.

They have UV lights and a note counter. The problem with the set up was that the customer can't see light.

 

[Swa]

Where I work, if we get a counterfeit or dye-stained note, we are obliged to confiscate it, take the customer's details, record the details of the note, and hand them a copy of that document which also serves as a receipt. That note then gets submitted to a FICA committee for further investigation.
If they had given the note back to you, that would be the same as passing illegal currency.
That SARB piece you quoted; it says that the cashier should refuse to accept the note(s) - which they did. It does not say "hand it back to the customer".
Did they take your details and record the details of the note / transaction? Did they hand you a receipt for the note?
If not - that would be rather dodgy. Because someone who works there could then steal that note and use it elsewhere.

No sir you are not obliged to confiscate it. The only right the law grants you is to refuse it. You can call the cops but if you even try to withhold it you are breaking the law and opening yourself up to a charge of theft and may be the one they arrest. You also can't prevent the customer from leaving.

Only the police can confiscate and afaik only the SARB is qualified to determine counterfeit currency.

 

[Swa]

What should I do if I think I have been given a fake or suspect note?

Answer: You should refuse to accept it and ask for another banknote. Remember that it is a criminal offence to use and pass on a counterfeit note knowingly. Ensure that you know the security, technical and design features of the new banknotes. Report any suspect notes to the South African Police Service.

Seems it's in our best interests not to know the security, technical and design features of the new banknotes.

A few years ago we got a note from the bank which the teller determined was "stained" and returned to us. Don't know how she figured that as I've had many notes before that were smudged with something or other. This one just happened to be pink but didn't look like any example of dye stained notes. It looked more like a smudge of the same ink the note was printed with so most likely a reject. We spent it at a small cafe.

 

[Swa]

I'm also in retail and whenever the bank teller pics up a fake note, they just punch holes in the note or with other banks they just inform me it's fake, hand it back and request another note.

That's also illegal. You are not allowed to destroy currency.

 

[Nerfherder]

Cash; who uses it?

We process about 6 billion rand worth of cash a month. It's still pretty big in SA

 

[GazWrack]

No sir, that is called payment rejection. Just like when a customer's card in your CC machine fails to transact, you can return it and refuse to try it again even if they insist.

A failed credit card transaction is note passing fake currency - the comparison is invalid.

The business should have rejected the note and asked the OP to provide another legal note. Only a bank or a legal authority can confiscate or destroy a fake note.

The business did reject the note. i.e. they refused to accept it as payment.
Giving it back to the customer is enabling money-laundering. You know there is a very good chance that person will take that note and use it somewhere else.

No sir you are not obliged to confiscate it. The only right the law grants you is to refuse it. You can call the cops but if you even try to withhold it you are breaking the law and opening yourself up to a charge of theft and may be the one they arrest. You also can't prevent the customer from leaving.

I'm not guessing. My company is defined as an accountable institution under the FIC act - we are obligated to confiscate and report illegal currency as it constitutes a suspicious transaction.

Theft of what? a piece of paper? It's not money if it's fake.
And if it happens to you that your fake money is confiscated, then go ahead and call the cops and explain that you want your fake money back...

Only the police can confiscate and afaik only the SARB is qualified to determine counterfeit currency.

wrong and wrong.
Accountable Institutions have an obligation to confiscate.
As I said before, passing the money back would make them complicate in money-laundering.

That's also illegal. You are not allowed to destroy currency.

fake notes are not currency

Seems it's in our best interests not to know the security, technical and design features of the new banknotes.

http://banknotes.resbank.co.za/banknotes

 

[FlashSA]

The business did reject the note. i.e. they refused to accept it as payment.
Giving it back to the customer is enabling money-laundering. You know there is a very good chance that person will take that note and use it somewhere else.

By your own admission, you and your company are a financial institution which may be qualified to confiscate a false bank note - I really don't care to read into your exact rights.

As a shopkeeper / business owner who receives cash for goods, I have no right to confiscate a suspect note from a customer - that is theft. Same applies to the scenario the OP was involved in. I have 2 options: give the note back and request a replacement from the customer or call the cops. Which one do you think will hurt the image of my business to the customer and his word of mouth and which one do you think is the amicable way of dealing with it?

I say again: if I took a note from a customer, declared it fake and refused to give it back or put it towards his payment, it would cause a violent sh&tstorm inside my premises and do harm to the good name of my business. I am not a policeman but will call one if blatant fraud is visible (many notes, not just one).

For 1 fake note in a bundle, move the heck on and let the customer use his moral compass to decide what to do with the note after he has concluded his transaction in my store.

 

[Bryn]

By your own admission, you and your company are a financial institution which may be qualified to confiscate a false bank note - I really don't care to read into your exact rights.

As a shopkeeper / business owner who receives cash for goods, I have no right to confiscate a suspect note from a customer - that is theft. Same applies to the scenario the OP was involved in. I have 2 options: give the note back and request a replacement from the customer or call the cops. Which one do you think will hurt the image of my business to the customer and his word of mouth and which one do you think is the amicable way of dealing with it?

I say again: if I took a note from a customer, declared it fake and refused to give it back or put it towards his payment, it would cause a violent sh&tstorm inside my premises and do harm to the good name of my business. I am not a policeman but will call one if blatant fraud is visible (many notes, not just one).

For 1 fake note in a bundle, move the heck on and let the customer use his moral compass to decide what to do with the note after he has concluded his transaction in my store.

I agree, except that I think a fake note just needs to be clearly marked before giving it back.

 

[FlashSA]

I agree, except that I think a fake note just needs to be clearly marked before giving it back.

That is a fair compromise.

 

[bwana]

I'm not guessing. My company is defined as an accountable institution under the FIC act - we are obligated to confiscate and report illegal currency as it constitutes a suspicious transaction.

Which section of the FICA empowers you to confiscate notes you suspect to be counterfeit?

 

[cr@zydude]

Which section of the FICA empowers you to confiscate notes you suspect to be counterfeit?

I'd really like to know this too, as well as what makes a business a financial institution.

 

[ColinR]

We process about 6 billion rand worth of cash a month. It's still pretty big in SA

I'm sure it is. MyBB community; it should not be!

 

[Swa]

I'm not guessing. My company is defined as an accountable institution under the FIC act - we are obligated to confiscate and report illegal currency as it constitutes a suspicious transaction.

Theft of what? a piece of paper? It's not money if it's fake.
And if it happens to you that your fake money is confiscated, then go ahead and call the cops and explain that you want your fake money back...

Which law gives you that right? The one you referred to says not to accept fake currency but it doesn't give you the right to confiscate it. That is your own interpretation.

You continue to ignore that you are neither qualified nor authoritative to determine "fakeness" so at the time you won't be confiscating just a piece of paper but what's regarded as currency.

wrong and wrong.
Accountable Institutions have an obligation to confiscate.
As I said before, passing the money back would make them complicate in money-laundering.

See above.

fake notes are not currency

See above.

http://banknotes.resbank.co.za/banknotes

Are you trying to teach me now what notes are fake? Guess you didn't get the gist of my post.

I agree, except that I think a fake note just needs to be clearly marked before giving it back.

You are not qualified to determine that so it would be illegal.

 

[Bryn]

You are not qualified to determine that so it would be illegal.

If a note is clearly illegal and only one such note has been presented, any sensible store would mark the note and return it to the customer for a replacement note. Or offer to dispose of the note before doing so.

You don't need a PhD and Large Hadron Collider to see whether or not a watermark is present.