Crystal Web (NEW ISP) ADSL Feedback

[Necuno]

I must get in contact with my friend that set that up, will get back to you tomorrow. The wug has a bit of config and code of every user on it hehe.

The streams must flow! 24.7! 1080p!

 

[saa044]

The streams must flow! 24.7! 1080p!

Nope, everything on SD. If I want HD Linux i use my wug connection.

 

[Sinbad]

I'd be happy with 720p but can't set the ps3 to that.

 

[Necuno]

Nope, everything on SD. If I want HD Linux i use my wug connection.

Three things that will make me happy now:
1. SM-G900FD.
2. Benq XL 144hz 24".
3. Upload speeds, a lot more than 512k-1024k.

 

[slasherjdc]

I'm all for this new account, as long as I don't get a Facebook msg from the wife complaining about netflix buffers. That is my main reason for the net. But now thinking about it, the Xbmc streams, I wonder what ports they use, it also get's used a lot in our household and I wouldn't want to upgrade to a downloaders account just to stream, will be awful.

It's not a new account sephiroth is experiencing it right now.
Everyone seems to not really understand. when you move back from unshaped, if anyone on your network even starts up a torrent client by mistake or leaves a badly seeded torrent getting 10kb/s running your wife won't be able to youtube let alone netflix.
this includes accidentally letting a p2p/nntp client start up with your pc without making sure everything is paused.
are these always unavoidable? no. i don't see the reason to have p2p unblocked when you basically get throttled to openweb levels.

 

[Paul Hjul]

Good luck on just doing off peaks for:
Wolfenstein TNO: 55g
The secret world: 50g
Star Citizen: 40g

But the streamers must stream! 24.7! 1080p

There may be a public benefit case to be made to specifically provision the downloading of certain games in order to prevent the gamers from causing public mayhem and destruction - but if that is the case then we want a tax rebate dammit
Or we could unleash the gamers on Telkom until they make IPC cheaper

Gamers taking on Telkom would need to be streamed 24/7 in 1080p

 

[Crystal Web]

It's not a new account sephiroth is experiencing it right now.
Everyone seems to not really understand. when you move back from unshaped, if anyone on your network even starts up a torrent client by mistake or leaves a badly seeded torrent getting 10kb/s running your wife won't be able to youtube let alone netflix.
this includes accidentally letting a p2p/nntp client start up with your pc without making sure everything is paused.
are these always unavoidable? no. i don't see the reason to have p2p unblocked when you basically get throttled to openweb levels.

Here's how we can maintain current pricing while ensuring customers have an awesome experience day and night: when you're not using UTorrent, please close it.

 

[Necuno]

There may be a public benefit case to be made to specifically provision the downloading of certain games in order to prevent the gamers from causing public mayhem and destruction - but if that is the case then we want a tax rebate dammit
Or we could unleash the gamers on Telkom until they make IPC cheaper

Gamers taking on Telkom would need to be streamed 24/7 in 1080p

I'm sorry, but seriously I've raised this before with CW. Its rather a stupid idea tbh to have an account that seems only to cater for streaming 24.7 for that is the most important thing in the world: nothing matters, **** everything, **** everyone, the streams must flow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is just as bad and as abusing when someone streams lekker 24.7, full hdd and other things are limited just to accommodate them and **** the rest. I mean, really **** the rest, shape the rest and who gives a **** when you can stream the world is dandy. I still get this underlying impression however I try not to see it this way and it is become a joke imho.

With my initial conversation with DJ... I told him exactly my expectancy, exactly my usages and he said they will be ok and I will be fine. However when I read what I read a few pages back it doesn't seem that way at all. I start to wonder and think and it ends up in the above of streams.

However with all that said:
I still want to give CW the benefit of the doubt and see what is for what when you guys finally launch, for I really want to see new people in the market and is honestly why I'm throwing my cash at you guys to see someone new in.

Now my account after we spoke has been a lot better and has improved in a lot of ways and I am truly thankful for that. Finally I don't need a backup account, having myself paying double each month just to get myself through and keep on supporting CW.

So of course it is not all hate, doom and gloom, but I can't help but think and feel from time to time WTF is going on and WTF are we going to.

//rant
//honest opinion

Here's how we can maintain current pricing while ensuring customers have an awesome experience day and night: when you're not using UTorrent, please close it.

Let me quickly close my battle net before it transact over p2p

 

[saa044]

It's not a new account sephiroth is experiencing it right now.
Everyone seems to not really understand. when you move back from unshaped, if anyone on your network even starts up a torrent client by mistake or leaves a badly seeded torrent getting 10kb/s running your wife won't be able to youtube let alone netflix.
this includes accidentally letting a p2p/nntp client start up with your pc without making sure everything is paused.
are these always unavoidable? no. i don't see the reason to have p2p unblocked when you basically get throttled to openweb levels.

My PTP only routes via 172.24/5 (wug) even if it wanted to it can't go out on the net. But for the average user yes, i see what you're saying.

 

[Aluroth]

Here's how we can maintain current pricing while ensuring customers have an awesome experience day and night: when you're not using UTorrent, please close it.

There are quite a few things that could trigger this "shaping" or "throttling" or whatever you want to call it. I don't permanently want to worry about whether or not I could update this game, stream from this service, etc and completely ruin the internet for the next hour.

Also my shaping/throttling is still not removed and I haven't used NNTP/P2P in the last hour and a half.

 

[saa044]

I'm sorry, but seriously I've raised this before with CW. Its rather a stupid idea tbh to have an account that seems only to cater for streaming 24.7 for that is the most important thing in the world: nothing matters, **** everything, **** everyone, the streams must flow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is just as bad and as abusing when someone streams lekker 24.7, full hdd and other things are limited just to accommodate them and **** the rest. I mean, really **** the rest, shape the rest and who gives a **** when you can stream the world is dandy. I still get this underlying impression however I try not to see it this way and it is become a joke imho.

With my initial conversation with DJ... I told him exactly my expectancy, exactly my usages and he said they will be ok and I will be fine. However when I read what I read a few pages back it doesn't seem that way at all. I start to wonder and think and it ends up in the above of streams.

However with all that said:
I still want to give CW the benefit of the doubt and see what is for what when you guys finally launch, for I really want to see new people in the market and is honestly why I'm throwing my cash at you guys to see someone new in.

Now my account after we spoke has been a lot better and has improved in a lot of ways and I am truly thankful for that. Finally I don't need a backup account, having myself paying double each month just to get myself through and keep on supporting CW.

So of course it is not all hate, doom and gloom, but I can't help but think and feel from time to time WTF is going on and WTF are we going to.

//rant
//honest opinion



Let me quickly close my battle net before it transact over p2p

To be fair, they have again been thrown into the deep water. If things ran their way they would still have a couple of beta testers while fine tuning the network and working out packages. Rather just wait and see what the price of the higher package will be.

 

[Necuno]

To be fair, they have again been thrown into the deep water. If things ran their way they would still have a couple of beta testers while fine tuning the network and working out packages. Rather just wait and see what the price of the higher package will be.

Of course:
I will reserve judgement for when everything is finalized.
No point to make final judgements on products being finalized, it is however a bit of WTF is going on and WTF are we going.

// rant
I just wish everyone can chill the **** out and do "normal" usage. I also have a **** loaf things I just want, but do I just download them because I can? No.
// off

 

[saa044]

Of course:
I will reserve judgement for when everything is finalized.
No point to make final judgements on products being finalized, it is however a bit of WTF is going on and WTF are we going.

// rant
I just wish everyone can chill the **** out and do "normal" usage. I also have a **** loaf things I just want, but do I just download them because I can? No.
// off

Lol understandeble, can't help but to monitor my fav xbmc links now to see which one's are going via p2p. Luckily none yet. My Q tree on my profile works like this

saa044 :80
saa044 :119
unmarked

So if you want me to test certain links for p2p/port 80 PM me.

 

[Necuno]

Lol understandeble, can't help but to monitor my fav xbmc links now to see which one's are going via p2p. Luckily none yet. My Q tree on my profile works like this

saa044 :80
saa044 :119
unmarked

So if you want me to test certain links for p2p/port 80 PM me.

LOL.

// telnet saa044:80

 

[Paul Hjul]

I omitted the comic sans ...

But in truth I am actually on your side of the issue - the streaming factor is a complication that really does surface especially if you look at the contention crunch that can happen (streamers more than downloaders contribute to the capacity constraints that are hitting sections of the network - certain exchanges) and one of the real benefits of NNTP, p2p and "downloaders" generally is that the considerate ones use the network when it is most available -- we haven't quite got to the point where streaming traffic picks up at 4am. The unfortunate reality though is that there is a market appeal dynamic at play here - people would buy the Model T Ford even if they thought it was butt ugly because it could be made cheap, to make it cheap they had to make it available to more people. I wouldn't call the streamers abusers, simply because I wouldn't call anybody not violating the law or causing actual harm to a network with the requisite intent, but it certainly is true that streaming is a more difficult usage case than scheduled downloaders. Gamers are a difficult case as well -- and don't get me started on Twitch (we thank Google for their acquisition of Twitch). While we may jest - particularly on the forum - trust me we take the challenges very very seriously. We will joke about the IPC price needing to come down rather than whine and bitch about Telkom, but underneath the joke is a very real knowledge that there is a serious problem with the underlying structures of the provisioning of DSL in SA: IPC needs to be reduced in price and Telkom needs to be able to generate sufficient revenue to allocate to the growing capacity needs, or somebody else needs to step up and join the party.

By getting p2p traffic (and the exact identification of p2p traffic is simplified) and NNTP and schedule-able downloads to be scheduled to off peak (and that is network off peak times) is a vital component of getting a network to work. Getting streamers on board allows for a situation where you have capacity well paid for that is only used at certain times (which can then be used by heavier use customers) and the reality is that in the main that section of the market uses their connection to a degree that makes it possible to invest in growing capacity across the board.

Trying to get the sort of usage mechanisms in place that allows the growth in on demand content to be matched by on scheduled content is one of the real challenges that remains with this industry and business - what we are really trying to accomplish is to perform the inverse of what has been the norm, where performance degrades as the network is unable to match usage patterns until the stage is reached where the network is hoping their more "demanding" customers leave the provider (and sometimes they accomplish this in rather direct means) and start insulting their users.

 

[Aluroth]

Okay, so this just happend. I didn't know FFXIV uses P2P to update. I also didn't know there was an update released for FFXIV. So when I tried to launch the game, it updated, and 2 mins into the update, the speed dropped to 0.01MB and bam, I'm super shaped again for the next < 1 hour. What should one do in a situation like this? Set your alarm clock for 00:00 just to update a game of 70mb?

 

[nand]

In my opinion data is data. Whether it's someone streaming an HD movie, or even whether it's grandma downloading her mails for the last seven years.

I think gamers and streamers have a lot more in common than torrenters.
P2P is just a ****ing nightmare though.

I really also suggest a non-p2p solution as well. You cannot reasonably expect everyone to be aware of which ports are in use by which application, or even to know what a port is.

The product being suggested makes an assumption about illegitimate traffic going over certain port ranges. This may not be the case, as ports are randomly assigned by an operating system.

Edit: The above seems to have been confirmed already. --^

 

[Crystal Web]

I'm sorry, but seriously I've raised this before with CW. Its rather a stupid idea tbh to have an account that seems only to cater for streaming 24.7 for that is the most important thing in the world: nothing matters, **** everything, **** everyone, the streams must flow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is not the only account we're releasing to the market.

It is just as bad and as abusing when someone streams lekker 24.7, full hdd and other things are limited just to accommodate them and **** the rest.

But this is not the only account we're going to have available. We've never said **** the rest, and never will. We're all discussing one single product in our range, before it's been released properly, that is effectively a standard entry level account, which is consumed by (these days) streamers, gamers, and after-hours downloaders in the vast majority.

If we were to release an account that allows streaming, gaming, downloading, VPN, peer to peer, and everything else at all times (to please absolutely everybody), it would have to be an uncapped, unshaped account (which is now on the cards after our trials [so far]). So as we've said time and time again, we're rather going to tailor the product range to specific usage requirements based on your feedback and the data we have available.

With my initial conversation with DJ... I told him exactly my expectancy, exactly my usages and he said they will be ok and I will be fine. However when I read what I read a few pages back it doesn't seem that way at all. I start to wonder and think and it ends up in the above of streams.

Crystal Web will not be selling a single account. Current users will always be looked after properly as well.

However with all that said:
I still want to give CW the benefit of the doubt and see what is for what when you guys finally launch, for I really want to see new people in the market and is honestly why I'm throwing my cash at you guys to see someone new in.

And we really appreciate the support, but it becomes incredibly disheartening when we engage (prematurely in this case but we're forced to) on a product that let's you effectively have an unshaped experience and simply asks you to be responsible (as users requested) by scheduling your downloads, which we believe is fair, and is in line with all of the data collected, and people assume that this is the only account that we'll release and it's somehow going to result in a terrible experience. My personal views on this matter are that customers said "give us unshaped" so we trialled it, and are in all likelihood going to launch it; customers said "we can be responsible, give us the chance" so we did, and are extending that responsibility to standard accounts as well and giving you the option to use p2p during the day if you need; customers also said give us great capped pricing, so we've put together some great products in this respect that we're finishing up; customers said "we need choice because I have unique requirements" so we're looking at putting this together based on demand; customers said "I have slow throughput" so we went above and beyond to fix this (granted, this is our responsibility as well); customers said "we want the best support" so we introduced what we believe to be the best 24hr support; customers said "we want, we want, we want" and we're trying to analyse these requests and determine which are viable and which aren't.

In your case, you use VPN services nearly all of the time - you have a very unique usage case, and you've largely been happy this month. So there are options here we're exploring specifically for you and other customers who require encrypted communication in large volumes.

The dynamic of this market though is shifting away from downloading the internet to streaming the internet. We have to cater for this. This is also why other ISPs have changed thigns up in their product base - where previously you could have 20 customers on the same bandwidth "after hours" you can now only have 5. But costs haven't reduced. This is why our argument has been that other ISPs were crazy to embark on price wars with each other and reduce the cost expectation without a reduction in input costs, only to subsequently degrade their own offerings once they'd reached their "critical mass" goals of the price war and attained dominant market positions.

There are no input cost reductions, but usage demand is increasing, and the times of usage demand are overlapping as well, making peak loads a real concern to ISPs as this peak load needs to be provisioned and paid for as well.

We tend to have a more tech-savvy (but high usage) customer base at the moment, who understand this to an extent, and in general appear to be willing to accept that they need to find the right product for their needs. In your case, the standard entry uncapped product is not suitable, and we'll talk in private at some point once we have our ducks in a row about getting you on to the right account for your specific and unique requirements. Because I made a commitment to you, and I believe in ethical business practices in this respect.

Now my account after we spoke has been a lot better and has improved in a lot of ways and I am truly thankful for that. Finally I don't need a backup account, having myself paying double each month just to get myself through and keep on supporting CW.

So of course it is not all hate, doom and gloom, but I can't help but think and feel from time to time WTF is going on and WTF are we going to.

This is the double-edged sword with being so open with you guys - it means that we end up having conversations about touchy subjects, to you as a consumer, and us as an ISP, and we need to remember to do so with level-heads (as you tend to do for the most part when you're not shouting at us ). Having a conversation means hearing all sides, and it's often a whole lot of conjecture thrown around that others read and start jumping to conclusions about.

We are releasing an entry-consumer product that let's you use the internet during the day, let's you use it at night, and let's you download peer to peer at line speed in off peak periods. It comes with some responsibilities though in order to offer such a product at the current price-points: don't peer to peer/nntp during peak periods if you want line speed on other protocols. If we left it as is (shaping or blocking peer to peer), usage patterns wouldn't change on the consumer side - people would still simply let their ISP dictate their usage patterns and there'd be less flexibility in offerings. We've never been shy about saying that this is a two-way street of responsibility from ours and a users' perspective.

We may in fact not be the ISP for every consumer out there, and we accept that as well. We have products that offer truly awesome value for money and performance. All we ask on the entry product is that for us to maintain current pricing, you need to accept that running large downloads in peak periods on peer to peer and nntp type protocols comes with an acceptance that other services at that point will be shaped. If you don't want shaping applied, schedule those downloads for off-peak, and we'll be open about when these times are. And also ensure that you're on the right account for your needs - we have the responsibility to advertise these accounts honestly, and customers have the responsibility to select appropriately for their requirements and in our opinion, not get upset when a standard uncapped account intended for consumer use is not offering line speed on all services at all times.

 

[Crystal Web]

There are quite a few things that could trigger this "shaping" or "throttling" or whatever you want to call it. I don't permanently want to worry about whether or not I could update this game, stream from this service, etc and completely ruin the internet for the next hour.

The problem is that peer to peer is by and large the biggest consumer of data on a network, so we have to port shape this, not per IP/site/service. If there is absolutely no possibility of scheduling your downloads to after hours, then we'll need to move you to an account better suited to your needs. When we spoke, you mentioned that peak time peer to peer use was very rare, but it seems you're still trying to use it continuously, which as I explained privately, will result in a longer lease on the shaping.

 

[slasherjdc]

Not sure what you mean by throttling but if you understanding is to restrain traffic by account or line capacity then definitely not.
Your terminology is neither standard (technical or industry) nor making much sense to be honest.

So what is throttling then? because if p2p,http and streaming is getting speeds under 50kbps and that's not considered throttling then go notify mweb that they can start calling it shaping again.

Again you seem to have a misconstruction of what shaping entails and what the objective and intent of throttling techniques are. Our data indicates that this is exactly what customers want and we have plenty of data to show why other approaches (blocking p2p traffic entirely on consumer accounts, or having an unshaped pool that has similar contentions to shaped pools) are not working for consumer accounts.

so your solution is having p2p unblocked...but if it is so much as detected you get "shaped" to 50kbps on everything....one step forward 10 steps back. ask anyone who wants p2p unblocked if they would rather have their whole connection "shaped" to 50kb/s the whole day and see what they say.
Your solution is the "worst" of both worlds.

If you connection is performing poorly and you are using p2p the answer is to pause your p2p and schedule it to an offpeak point IF you are on the standard entry consumer product - if you are on a different product different rules. Currently corporate clients in this market "pay more to block p2p" because there are huge benefits for them in doing so.

It really seems as though you have been burnt by somebody and are paranoid that an ISP will go out of its way to hurt you. The best guarantee for quality from ISPs is a market of quality ISPs with month to month options and an array of consumer choice (which is why we are not discussing the entirety of a product range here but rather the standard entry product). What really is confusing me is that this shaping policy is as relaxed as the one we entered the market with (it differs in that the scope of traffic "unshapedness" off-peak is higher and the intrusiveness of the shaping during the day matches "dynamic shaping" techniques).
More importantly this entire discussion is largely premised on conjecture and we'd really like to be able to engage on options and approaches with our customers without having to ward off conspiracy theory type thinking.

Not everyone can pause p2p.
burnt by an isp? That's not the case at all. I don't just go with the flow waiting until it's too late. I make sure i'm not digging a hole for myself.
No "consumer" benefits from being throttled when p2p is detected. why are you even leaving p2p unblocked if not only is it unusable but it throttles the crap out of you. there is absolutely no logical reason to having it unblocked. The absolutely only people who benefit from this policy is the upstream provider as one less account to cater to.

You contradict yourself. the only people who can be certain that p2p doesn't touch their connection during business hours is people who live by themselves or people with expensive mikrotiks and have enough knowledge to actually set one up.....the same people who can generally can afford premium accounts. The "average user" wouldn't even know what p2p is let alone know what ports it uses to be able to block it...if i told my grandmother to sign up with you she would be forced to pay for premium of business because it takes me 10min phone calls for me to explain to her how to do a dnsflush let alone close something in the system tray. if one of my cousin installs a p2p client on her pc do you think she would rather cancel or sit through a 20min phone call every time that the p2p client starts up without her knowledge.


the bottom line is the people who want to p2p during peak hours should be the ones forced to upgrade. not the people who don't.