Crystal Web (NEW ISP) ADSL Feedback

[slasherjdc]

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Peer to peer, nntp and other automated downloads are shaped during daytime use to preserve network quality. If traffic on these protocols are detected during peak hours, other services such as http downloads are deprioritised (they are normally prioritised 100%). This is to encourage users to schedule their large downloads to outside of our peak usage period, and to ensure that we don’t have to block these ports for customers. So while you can download on these protocols during peak periods, it will slow down other services when you do, until such time as that peer to peer traffic for example has been stopped.

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that's probably going to be a problem...
For those of us sharing the line we have no control over that...if for instance my roommate tries to download something to p2p basically whole account becomes useless...I'd personally prefer you blocked p2p during business hours.
because having it shape your whole connection means having p2p enabled becomes pointless anyways(deprioritization is the definition of shaping you can call it what you want :/)

also i hope your talking about your shaped account because "downloading any p2p shapes your whole connection" then what is the difference between shaped and unshaped?

 

[Necuno]

that's probably going to be a problem...
For those of us sharing the line we have no control over that...if for instance my roommate tries to download something to p2p basically whole account becomes useless...I'd personally prefer you blocked p2p during business hours.
because having it shape your whole connection means having p2p enabled becomes pointless anyways(deprioritization is the definition of shaping you can call it what you want :/)

or do the smart thing. Get your own account. Problem solved. Simple.

 

[slasherjdc]

or do the smart thing. Get your own account. Problem solved. Simple.

i Had my own account...shaun convinced me to upgrade and share it instead saying it wouldn't be a problem.
I can manually limit p2p all i want to on my router but 1kbps p2p will still show up as p2p.....

 

[Necuno]

i Had my own account...shaun convinced me to upgrade and share it instead saying it wouldn't be a problem.
I can manually limit p2p all i want to on my router but 1kbps p2p will still show up as p2p.....

I'm sure we are talking about traffic as max line and not self-throttled traffic?

 

[patrick123]

Nice.
When I first read your post, I somehow thought you were referring to you CW package. I only later saw that it was more likely to be your line speed.

I find it similar to "Puppy Love". Many years ago ( not giving away my age ), you get a hot chick, most of the time you are sitting there chewing her face off.

This is how the internet was initially... Wow! A 2Mbs line! This poor connection is kept busy 24/7 downloading everything including "The Brady Bunch", just because it's there!, not that it ever will be watched!.

Nowadays (Okay about 3% is genuine work, but have convinced the SO that it's close to 30%), if we want to watch a series, or a movie, simply select it, no need to download. We have the largest Virtual Video Shop at our doorstep, FREE OF CHARGE! (Linux Distros are free ) The children, (okay the youngest is 20) all know that it's available! It does not need to be on your computer unless you need it. One gets used to having this speed and takes it for granted.

I could not imagine, copying & re-copying my server hard-drive simply to ensure that my 1GB home network is 100% utilised at all times simply to "get my monies worth" from the switch.... Why should the internet be different? No need to use it apart from checking my emails, but when I need it for a flick or two, it's there!

 

[slasherjdc]

I'm sure we are talking about traffic as max line and not self-throttled traffic?

They said if traffic p2p is detected nothing about how much p2p.
actually wouldn't be a bad idea to have a option on the control panel to disable p2p
if we are talking about the unshaped account though......whats the difference then? the shaped ones where supposed to have no shaping on streaming and http during business hours?

 

[savage]

Peer to peer, nntp and other automated downloads are shaped during daytime use to preserve network quality. If traffic on these protocols are detected during peak hours, other services such as http downloads are deprioritised (they are normally prioritised 100%). This is to encourage users to schedule their large downloads to outside of our peak usage period, and to ensure that we don’t have to block these ports for customers.

Yep - this is problematic. So if I just telnet to port 119 to determine whether or not a service is online, or test an authentication system, I am now capped on absolutely everything? Then how long does it take for your system to determine to 'unshape' me after I have transmitted one single packet to port 119 on some random host? An hour? Two hours? If your systems are down, days?

And what would you consider "heavy usage" on VPN traffic? I have a L2TP tunnel permanently connected, just transmitting OSPF packets (not even 1kb/s), and I'm shaped to hell and back in that even a SSH session is barely even usable.

I don't agree with this, at all. If torrents is a issue, shape torrents during the day. If NNTP is a issue, shape it during the day. This is what I will consider a show stopper for me :twisted:

 

[Necuno]

They said if traffic p2p is detected nothing about how much p2p.
actually wouldn't be a bad idea to have a option on the control panel to disable p2p
if we are talking about the unshaped account though......whats the difference then? the shaped ones where supposed to have no shaping on streaming and http during business hours?

Anyway... I mostly download at 40%-50% of line speed due to wanting to actually still being able to use the line. Any 100% normally happens when I turn into bed or as I leave the house over the w/e

 

[slasherjdc]

Anyway... I mostly download at 40%-50% of line speed due to wanting to actually still being able to use the line. Any 100% normally happens when I turn into bed or as I leave the house over the w/e

It still doesn't make any sense to shape http if p2p is detected.....that means if you want to do that 40% you wanted....say goodbye to anything other than youtube and netflix.

 

[DJ...]

Yep - this is problematic. So if I just telnet to port 119 to determine whether or not a service is online, or test an authentication system, I am now capped on absolutely everything? Then how long does it take for your system to determine to 'unshape' me after I have transmitted one single packet to port 119 on some random host? An hour? Two hours? If your systems are down, days?

And what would you consider "heavy usage" on VPN traffic?

I don't agree with this, at all. If torrents is a issue, shape torrents during the day. If NNTP is a issue, shape it during the day. This is what I will consider a show stopper for me :twisted:

That's one product in a range, intended for your average consumer. And there's no capping or throttling. We'll shape HTTP downloads and streaming during peak if that happens, and the system checks on the hour.

Moreover, if you have a legit service that's used, we can whitelist it for you, but if you're intending to use such a productive for frequent business related use, this one product in the range will in all likelihood not be suitable. We are releasing other products for this usage case requirement...

 

[Necuno]

It still doesn't make any sense to shape http if p2p is detected.....that means if you want to do that 40% you wanted....say goodbye to anything other than youtube and netflix.

// emails slasherjdc a p2p link to click on :twisted:

whole new level of backorifice fun :twisted::twisted::twisted:

cDc :twisted:

 

[DJ...]

This product allows us to give you an uncapped and effectively unshaped experience if you queue your large downloads properly, and we can do so at great prices. If you need peer to peer or VPN at any time of any day or rather want it, should I say, there are other products for such a usage case...

 

[savage]

It still doesn't make any sense to shape http if p2p is detected.....that means if you want to do that 40% you wanted....say goodbye to anything other than youtube and netflix.

And gamers of course! Don't forget about them.

Moreover, if you have a legit service that's used, we can whitelist it for you, but if you're intending to use such a productive for frequent business related use, this one product in the range will in all likelihood not be suitable. We are releasing other products for this usage case requirement...

I haven't had the need to contact a support desk for over 5 years (if not longer). I am not about to run to one for every single little thing I want to do. Are we now kids that needs to ask permission to use a service that we pay for?

Please Sir - May I download the new CentOS quickly, I need an updated version of the OS to re-install a server quickly....

What's the flippen point of high speed broadband connections if you can't use it!

 

[DJ...]

This also means that we can really simplify the product range for businesses and consumers.

 

[slasherjdc]

That's one product in a range, intended for your average consumer. And there's no capping or throttling. We'll shape HTTP downloads and streaming during peak if that happens, and the system checks on the hour.

Moreover, if you have a legit service that's used, we can whitelist it for you, but if you're intending to use such a productive for frequent business related use, this one product in the range will in all likelihood not be suitable. We are releasing other products for this usage case requirement...

No. i'm going to have to cancel if that is the case sorry. I don''t care if you block p2p but if i get streaming shaped then this is terrible.
some games even show up as p2p. and all blizzard products have p2p downloading enabled by default(have to disable it).
you have to do something about that policy because that is ridiculous.

 

[DJ...]

And gamers of course! Don't forget about them.



I haven't had the need to contact a support desk for over 5 years (if not longer). I am not about to run to one for every single little thing I want to do. Are we now school kids that needs to ask permission to use a service that we pay for?

Please Sir - May I download the new CentOS quickly, I need an updated version of the OS to re-install a server quickly....

What's the flippen point of high speed broadband connections if you can't use it!

So you want uncapped unshaped for any given protocol at any given time? We're testing and pricing that now. But you're not going to get it on a standard uncapped account at current pricing...

 

[slasherjdc]

So you want uncapped unshaped for any given protocol at any given time? We're testing and pricing that now. But you're not going to get it on a standard uncapped account at current pricing...

Your missing the point, no ones asking for unshaped p2p during the day...your basically handing someone a loaded gun and saying don't use it.....no one asked for it and if it misfires, sucks to be you.

 

[Crystal Web]

They said if traffic p2p is detected nothing about how much p2p.
actually wouldn't be a bad idea to have a option on the control panel to disable p2p
if we are talking about the unshaped account though......whats the difference then? the shaped ones where supposed to have no shaping on streaming and http during business hours?

I think you're again getting very confused about this. We're not talking about the unshaped accounts here.

 

[savage]

So you want uncapped unshaped for any given protocol at any given time? We're testing and pricing that now. But you're not going to get it on a standard uncapped account at current pricing...

Where did I say that, please?

Let me spell it out. IF NNTP IS A PROBLEM, SHAPE IT! IF TORRENTS IS A PROBLEM, SHAPE IT! There's NO reason to restrict an entire flippen account because of it. What happens when my Skype (which can use random ports), accidently decides to use port 119? Dropbox - another example... There's NUMERIOUS applications that uses random ports... VoIP (RTP)....

Who's responsible when you incorrectly classify traffic and decide to rate limit (let's be honest this isn't qos as there's NO quality) your entire user base?

 

[Crystal Web]

Your missing the point, no ones asking for unshaped p2p during the day...your basically handing someone a loaded gun and saying don't use it.....no one asked for it and if it misfires, sucks to be you.

If we block p2p other customers complain. We're saying, the choice is yours and being open about it, and letting you make the decision about how you use your account. If you want to use peer to peer during peak times, sure. But we can't offer you an unshaped experience on that basis. Once you stop the peer to peer and the system detects as such, it will release shaping thereafter if this usage was during peak hours.

The point here was to make a simple product that allows you to have a great experience - from our research, few people are interested in peer to peer during the day, but some are, so we've set the account up so that the choice is yours. You decide if you want to use it. Otherwise schedule your downloads for off-peak hours.

The issue here is that there are hundreds of customers with different usage cases - you want one thing, 10 other people want another, 30 want another. So we've created a baseline standard product that will be fantastic for most users, that doesn't apply 24x7 shaping like other ISPs, that doesn't throttle you after you use "too much" and that let's you have an unshaped experience for the most part if you can hold off a few hours on downloading the latest episode of Desperate Housewives. If you can't wait, and absolutely have to have it the moment it is released, then that option is available, and we're being upfront about what affect that will have.

Then, we have other products to suit other usage cases for where this particular product is not 100% suitable.

But this is why this entire conversation is premature, as we've not released these, nor pricing.

This is a single product in a range, please remember that. This is the equivalent of other ISPs' entry home accounts and priced accordingly. By my measurements it stacks up far better in terms of bang for your buck, and we're giving you options now as well.

I don't believe we're being unfair here at all. Quite the opposite.