Crystal Web (NEW ISP) ADSL Feedback

[Crystal Web]

Question about the Fusion accounts.

Does usage after midnight come off the unshaped GBs?

Shaping is only applied after the unshaped gigs are used - that's when the radius tags change to implement shaping. So yes, this usage also counts.

 

[Slamz]

Shaping is only applied after the unshaped gigs are used - that's when the radius tags change to implement shaping. So yes, this usage also counts.

how will your shaping affect my streaming? im not too worried about tor downloads, thats like about 20-gig a month max, but i stream tons around 500 gig a month, daytime and night time

 

[Crystal Web]

Well that might be a good change to make then CW

We're looking into it.

But these unshaped gigs are pretty much a freebie from us to you guys. Essentially then if we do this, and a customer does 10gigs per night after hours, we're throwing in up to 400 gigs for free instead. See the problem here? This would place a customer on unshaped all of the time, with the same usage patterns and throughput or higher, on much lower costs than uncapped unshaped actually costs. It changes things quite drastically to be honest, but there are some options here that we're exploring.

 

[saa044]

We're looking into it.

But these unshaped gigs are pretty much a freebie from us to you guys. Essentially then if we do this, and a customer does 10gigs per night after hours, we're throwing in up to 400 gigs for free instead. See the problem here? This would place a customer on unshaped all of the time, with the same usage patterns and throughput or higher, on much lower costs than uncapped unshaped actually costs. It changes things quite drastically to be honest, but there are some options here that we're exploring.

With things as they are currently that is also a possibility when the 100GB will be depleted. So if you unshape after 12AM and said person does 10GB till 6AM you will reach 400GB either way. But just saying.

 

[Crystal Web]

how will your shaping affect my streaming? im not too worried about tor downloads, thats like about 20-gig a month max, but i stream tons around 500 gig a month, daytime and night time

We don't shape streaming traffic. But what line speed is this on? Customer using half a terabyte each month should be paying for premium accounts if it's day and night usage to be honest. Your best bet is uncapped unshaped, and not a Fusion account. But that's just about responsible purchasing decisions. We won't touch the shaping on the streaming, but if customers all start pushing these volumes on entry and medium price products both day and night then eventually we'll either have to impose a threshold, or adjust pricing upwards.

We have a responsibility to market our products honestly. Honestly, Fusion would work for you, but Uncapped Unshaped would be more sustainable from a long term relationship perspective with your ISP.

Pushing half a terabyte of day and night usage on streaming demands a premium product.

 

[Crystal Web]

With things as they are currently that is also a possibility when the 100GB will be depleted. So if you unshape after 12AM and said person does 10GB till 6AM you will reach 400GB either way. But just saying.

No worries there, that's built into the costing model already. But now you have extra day-time unshaped bandwidth. In other words you increase our overall peak capacity load quite drastically. In other words we now need to purchase more capacity per customer than on the current model. In other words our costs go up. In other words we increase the price to you.

 

[saa044]

No worries there, that's built into the costing model already. But now you have extra day-time unshaped bandwidth. In other words you increase our overall peak capacity load quite drastically. In other words we now need to purchase more capacity per customer than on the current model. In other words our costs go up. In other words we increase the price to you.

I am luckily a max 200GB a month customer, or I hope I am. Is 200GB a lot for this type of account or is it ok?

 

[Crystal Web]

I am luckily a max 200GB a month customer, or I hope I am. Is 200GB a lot for this type of account or is it ok?

No worries about this. There's no real maximum number of gigs. This notion is odd to us. Nobody is abusing a network doing 500gigs off peak, and we hate the term abuser in any case.

Let's take two uncapped customers on the same product and same price:

Customer A downloads 500GB between 11pm and 7am because that's when automated downloads fire off in any case and when stuff is released. He occasionally streams and games during the day.
Customer B downloads 200GBs but all in daytime peak usage.

Customer B has more of a detrimental impact on our network than customer A, even though customer A downloaded more. We calculated peak capacity on unshaped and then ran some complex forumulas to determine how much of this peak usage we actually "don't care about" or at least can provision capacity for in ADDITION to increasing bandwidth priorities to high once shaped. We added margin to cover costs and every second Tuesday buy some bread and milk, and priced the products.

So it's more about what your unique usage patterns demand of our network. Not of how much you use overall.

 

[Slamz]

We don't shape streaming traffic. But what line speed is this on? Customer using half a terabyte each month should be paying for premium accounts if it's day and night usage to be honest. Your best bet is uncapped unshaped, and not a Fusion account. But that's just about responsible purchasing decisions. We won't touch the shaping on the streaming, but if customers all start pushing these volumes on entry and medium price products both day and night then eventually we'll either have to impose a threshold, or adjust pricing upwards.

We have a responsibility to market our products honestly. Honestly, Fusion would work for you, but Uncapped Unshaped would be more sustainable from a long term relationship perspective with your ISP.

Pushing half a terabyte of day and night usage on streaming demands a premium product.

ok, i understand, now, i have a 4mb line, if i change my usage to maybe 350 max, by stopping the tele being on during the day9 been thinking of doing this for a while now), will your fusion account work for me?

also, is there shaping on different streams? eg, netflix vs hulu - netflix plays well and hulu buffers alot? bbc iplayer plays fine and itv buffers?

 

[Hectic]

You must begin to vet your new customers. They must use the account responsibly or we vote them out.

 

[saa044]

No worries about this. There's no real maximum number of gigs. This notion is odd to us. Nobody is abusing a network doing 500gigs off peak, and we hate the term abuser in any case.

Let's take two uncapped customers on the same product and same price:

Customer A downloads 500GB between 11pm and 7am because that's when automated downloads fire off in any case and when stuff is released. He occasionally streams and games during the day.
Customer B downloads 200GBs but all in daytime peak usage.

Customer B has more of a detrimental impact on our network than customer A, even though customer A downloaded more. We calculated peak capacity on unshaped and then ran some complex forumulas to determine how much of this peak usage we actually "don't care about" or at least can provision capacity for in ADDITION to increasing bandwidth priorities to high once shaped. We added margin to cover costs and every second Tuesday buy some bread and milk, and priced the products.

So it's more about what your unique usage patterns demand of our network. Not of how much you use overall.

Ok lets take customer saa044's household lol. Between 1AM and 3PM the line is fairly quiet. From 3PM till about 1AM it streams mostly. But also take into regard, stream one has a max of 1.3mbps on the qos (Daughters Android stick on my tv, on betwean 3PM till about 7:30PM), but for a 1 hour episode on Netflix it might do 1.3mbps for 30 minutes. The wife mostly reads on her tab. I will start to stream from 6:30PM till about 1AM, but at a max of lets say 2mbps, also about 30min of data being used for a 1 hour episode. How does that scenario impact your network? Just FYI I have no issues at all with CW currently regarding streaming, gaming etc... I am just a very curious person, why I ask all these silly questions.

 

[Crystal Web]

ok, i understand, now, i have a 4mb line, if i change my usage to maybe 350 max, by stopping the tele being on during the day9 been thinking of doing this for a while now), will your fusion account work for me?

also, is there shaping on different streams? eg, netflix vs hulu - netflix plays well and hulu buffers alot? bbc iplayer plays fine and itv buffers?

Shaping is a protocol, and we shape on protocols, so we don't apply different shaping to different services.

Fusion should work for your needs, sure.

 

[Crystal Web]

You must begin to vet your new customers. They must use the account responsibly or we vote them out.

Nah, we've also built into the model high usage customers as well. But we expect you guys in return to go send us your mom and pop business please, from friends and family.

 

[Crystal Web]

Ok lets take customer saa044's household lol. Between 1AM and 3PM the line is fairly quiet. From 3PM till about 1AM it streams mostly. But also take into regard, stream one has a max of 1.3mbps on the qos (Daughters Android stick on my tv, on betwean 3PM till about 7:30PM), but for a 1 hour episode on Netflix it might do 1.3mbps for 30 minutes. The wife mostly reads on her tab. I will start to stream from 6:30PM till about 1AM, but at a max of lets say 2mbps, also about 30min of data being used for a 1 hour episode. How does that scenario impact your network? Just FYI I have no issues at all with CW currently regarding streaming, gaming etc... I am just a very curious person, why I ask all these silly questions.

You're killing the proprietary information cat here.

We need a proprietary information cat pic.

 

[saa044]

You're killing the proprietary information cat here.

We need a proprietary information cat pic.

lol

No I was just thinking, when you tell people you stream they always think you max out your line for the duration of the stream, which most of the time it is not like that. But then again not everyone is happy with SD content like myself, so they might max the line out.

 

[Crystal Web]

lol

No I was just thinking, when you tell people you stream they always think you max out your line for the duration of the stream, which most of the time it is not like that. But then again not everyone is happy with SD content like myself, so they might max the line out.

This is where profitability comes in. 4Mbps customers with a solid connection can get full HD streams on their line from certain services. That's absolute maximum utilisation of their line. In other words for an ISP to service this userbase of streamers, 4Mbps has to operate at streaming time on much, much lower contentions to keep the network running properly and to deliver a decent performance. So profitability during this time is shot - we lose a lot. And we bank on the prediction that streamers tend to download less, and therefore average utilisation of the line over other protocols is less, so we can earn some margin back thereafter. BUT, it still increases peak capacity loads as contention is so low, so the costs are high to the ISP for these types of customers.

It's a complex game. I don't mind sharing this info - anyone can figure this out for themselves.

How we overcome this and not go out of business is the proprietary info we keep close to our hearts.

 

[Sinbad]

This is where profitability comes in. 4Mbps customers with a solid connection can get full HD streams on their line from certain services. That's absolute maximum utilisation of their line. In other words for an ISP to service this userbase of streamers, 4Mbps has to operate at streaming time on much, much lower contentions to keep the network running properly and to deliver a decent performance. So profitability during this time is shot - we lose a lot. And we bank on the prediction that streamers tend to download less, and therefore average utilisation of the line over other protocols is less, so we can earn some margin back thereafter. BUT, it still increases peak capacity loads as contention is so low, so the costs are high to the ISP for these types of customers.

It's a complex game. I don't mind sharing this info - anyone can figure this out for themselves.

How we overcome this and not go out of business is the proprietary info we keep close to our hearts.

Damn, I was hoping to find out the location of your gold mine.

 

[Crystal Web]

And the reason I'm telling you this as well is so that you guys can understand that we're actively monitoring this stuff and are constantly investing in maintaining the network and service for you all, rather than Bleeping on constantly about how we can't do this, that, and the next thing because IPC is too expensive.

Yes, it is too expensive, but that doesn't mean it's an excuse for not delivering a quality network. Likewise, customers should be purchasing the right product for their needs if they want their ISP to consistently reinvest in the network to maintain or increase performance.

 

[saa044]

And the reason I'm telling you this as well is so that you guys can understand that we're actively monitoring this stuff and are constantly investing in maintaining the network and service for you all, rather than Bleeping on constantly about how we can't do this, that, and the next thing because IPC is too expensive.

Yes, it is too expensive, but that doesn't mean it's an excuse for not delivering a quality network. Likewise, customers should be purchasing the right product for their needs if they want their ISP to consistently reinvest in the network to maintain or increase performance.

Yeah i suppose that's why I was asking all of this. Maybe instead of streaming for 5 hours, I can for instance play a extra hour with my daughter and play a bit of Defiance, as that does not chow to much bandwidth. From my side I want to do everything I can to help CW where possible.

 

[ToxicBunny]

CW must be dumbfounded.. since when do customers actively try and help out