DA Wants H.I.V Testing Without Consent

[Zyzzyva]

One thing though, if you are HIV positive and its been confirmed and you are irresponsible with sex, you victim has more legal recourse. Well thats what I was thinking. Im like you. Not so happy about the idea of "having" to do something, but my own selfish desires are trumped the greater good it would do to the community.

I tend to agree. But it is a very slippery slope.

But either way, I'm sure the stats would show AIDS is far worse than the estimates say. I remember a local doctor(public hospital) saying about 8 out of 10 black patients he sees show signs of AIDS.

Would it be a yearly test? Because it would need to be.

 

[w1z4rd]

I tend to agree. But it is a very slippery slope.

But either way, I'm sure the stats would show AIDS is far worse than the estimates say. I remember a local doctor(public hospital) saying about 8 out of 10 black patients he sees show signs of AIDS.

Would it be a yearly test? Because it would need to be.

Im not sure. Specialists in the field should decide on the best method to do this.

The government already know how much I earn, who I phone, where I live... will it honestly effect me if they know my HIV status? Nope, not in any way whatsoever other than actually having to go for a non-intrusive test. Out of all the information the government has on me, this is probably the most irrelevant to me.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Im not sure. Specialists in the field should decide on the best method to do this.

The government already know how much I earn, who I phone, where I live... will it honestly effect me if they know my HIV status? Nope, not in any way whatsoever other than actually having to go for a non-intrusive test. Out of all the information the government has on me, this is probably the most irrelevant to me.

Well i think the logic is clear, it would need to be relatively often.

 

[porchrat]

One thing though, if you are HIV positive and its been confirmed and you are irresponsible with sex, you victim has more legal recourse. Well thats what I was thinking. Im like you. Not so happy about the idea of "having" to do something, but my own selfish desires are trumped the greater good it would do to the community.

How can you be "irresponsible with sex" without the "victim" being irresponsible too?

I can understand with rape but with consensual sex I don't see the logic.

 

[Zyzzyva]

How can you be "irresponsible with sex" without the "victim" being irresponsible too?

I can understand with rape but with consensual sex I don't see the logic.

The only real difference the testing will make is it'll give us good stats. Most "western mindset' people tend to respond a bit better to the realities of the threat, but testing does little for the rural folk because at the end of the day they will not stick to condoms, abstinence, or monogamy. Its a very deep cultural issue which will take a few generations to change, if ever.

Even getting them to behave 80% of the time is not enough when people have unsafe sex every few days.

 

[w1z4rd]

How can you be "irresponsible with sex" without the "victim" being irresponsible too?

I can understand with rape but with consensual sex I don't see the logic.

You have sex after being tested knowing you have HIV, your partner has sex thinking you dont have HIV/AIDS. The logic is incredibly clear and reasonable.

 

[porchrat]

You have sex after being tested knowing you have HIV, your partner has sex thinking you dont have HIV/AIDS. The logic is incredibly clear.

If you decide to believe your partner's claims then you are willingly taking the risk knowing they could be lying instead of just insisting on a condom or demanding to see the recent test result before having sex. Sounds irresponsible to me.

 

[w1z4rd]

If you decide to believe your partner's claims then you are willingly taking the risk knowing they could be lying instead of just insisting on a condom or demanding to see the recent test result before having sex. Sounds irresponsible to me.

You keep forgetting the rural people. Im sure it sounds completely reasonable to you and me, but we are not talking about you and me. I cant believe you cant see that it reasonable to hold someone accountable for knowingly and deceitfully infecting other people with the HIV virus. Its really beyond my ken. Thats attempted murder.

 

[porchrat]

You keep forgetting the rural people. Im sure it sounds completely reasonable to you and me, but we are not talking about you and me. I cant believe you cant see that it reasonable to hold someone accountable for knowingly and deceitfully infecting other people with the HIV virus. Its really beyond my ken. Thats attempted murder.

If there is another factor like coercion or something else I haven't considered then, as I mentioned before, I can understand. If not then it is just irresponsible behaviour on both sides.

The facts are out there. They are on SABC, they are on the radio, they are in every fscking clinic these rural people go to. They CHOOSE not to listen. If you choose not to listen then you must face the consequences of that choice. Don't cry afterwards when what those posters you've been seeing all over place have been telling you will happen to you finally happens and claim attempted murder. You knew the risks and you CHOSE not to use a condom anyway. You are also responsible. You are not some blameless victim.

 

[w1z4rd]

If there is another factor like coercion on something then I can understand. If not then it is just irresponsible behaviour. The facts are out there. They are on SABC, they are on the radio, they are in every fscking clinic these rural people go to. They CHOOSE not to listen. If you choose not to listen then you must face the consequences of that choice. Don't cry afterwards when what those posters you've been seeing all over place will happen to you finally happens and claim attempted murder. You knew the risks and you CHOSE not to use a condom anyway. You are also responsible. You are not some blameless victim.

Blame the victim now. Okay.

Its almost like saying that she deserved to be raped cause of what she is wearing.
Now she deserves to get HIV because she didnt make sure her partner did not lie to her.

 

[porchrat]

Blame the victim now. Okay.

I'm not blaming a victim. I'm blaming a person that rook the risk of unprotected sex.

Someone that has no say in the matter is a victim.

Someone that makes a conscious decision to engage in an act after having been informed of the potential consequences is not a victim when those consequences become reality. We call those people fools.

 

[w1z4rd]

I'm not blaming a victim. I'm blaming a person that rook the risk of unprotected sex.

Someone that has no say in the matter is a victim.

Im sorry, your argument doesnt convince me in the slightest. You are blaming the victim. You are saying the victim is not responsible enough by having unprotected sex (ergo its the victims fault) even after asking her partner if he has HIV. The perp lied, he committed fraud and destroyed someones life. If someone has unprotected sex without disclosing his HIV status to his partner (knowing that he or she does have HIV), then that person should be held up for murder. I cant ever get into your way of thinking. It makes no sense whatsoever to me. No ways I could allow a killer to walk around freely like that. Well.. in your world it would be easy to become a psychopath killer. Get aids and fk as many people as you want without telling them as there is no consequence. I wonder how many people you could kill that way.

You should come visit the eastern cape, where massive parts of the province live in mud huts... its very hilly, and few places have electricity. Those that dont try listen to SABC via battery radio.... but the EC is a land of hills and many places dont even get radio single. Not even my families developed farm has Eskom. I dont think you okes understand rural SA very well. Sorry.

 

[killadoob]

If you decide to believe your partner's claims then you are willingly taking the risk knowing they could be lying instead of just insisting on a condom or demanding to see the recent test result before having sex. Sounds irresponsible to me.

Yup but what if you have responsible sex and something goes wrong? You have a valid point and anyone who is banging without knowing their partners status should have no legal recourse what so ever. It should be illegal to have sex if you are infected and a jail term should be implemented.

I am sure the stats for HIV are far higher. Sadly we will never know because we don't want to infringe on people's rights, it's better for the people to keep infecting and killing themselves. At least it keeps the population down i guess. So their a benefit to AIDS and perhaps it is better to let it take hold of all the countries world wide. Culling is never a bad thing.

Imagine everyone knowing their status, omg how could we be so silly .

I also reckon if you have AIDS traveling abroad should banned just as it would be with an airborne disease. In fact an airborne disease is easier to control because the signs are fairly obvious, AIDS is silent and slips in and out without leaving many signs.

 

[porchrat]

Im sorry, your argument doesnt convince me in the slightest. I dont believe in blaming the victim in this. If someone has unprotected sex without disclosing his HIV status to his partner (knowing that he or she does have HIV), then that person should be held up for murder. I cant ever get into your way of thinking. It makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Ultimately the choice over whether or not to take the risk of infection lies with your so-called "victim".

If your "victim" made a conscious informed choice after having been informed of the risks then I have no sympathy.

You should come visit the eastern cape, where massive parts of the province live in mud huts... its very hilly, and few places have electricity. Those that dont try listen to SABC via battery radio.... but the EC is a land of hills and many places dont even get radio single. I dont think you okes understand rural SA very well. Sorry.

The clinics carry these messages too. You saying these rural folks have never visited a clinic?

 

[w1z4rd]

Ultimately the choice over whether or not to take the risk of infection lies with your so-called "victim".

The victim believes they are not taking a risk. So sorry, your logic does not fly. If there is mandatory tests and the perp tells the victim he is clean when on record he is not, then he is a murderer.

If your "victim" made a conscious informed choice after having been informed of the risks then I have no sympathy.

Most of these victims live in the bush and listen to their sangoma`s and believe in the tokolosh. Normally they go to the clinics when the sangoma`s cure`s dont work and normally by then its too late. We are talking about people who believe.. (like as xians believe in jesus), that sleeping with a virgin cures aids.

The clinics carry these messages too. You saying these rural folks have never visited a clinic?

No, where on earth do you get that idea? Many do... once they have HIV AIDS. Dude, seriously, come visit me for a week. Ill show you what the reality is. When you can smell the clinic from several km`s away you will understand real SA. Not the urbanized islands of development you are used to.

 

[porchrat]

Yup but what if you have responsible sex and something goes wrong?

This is an entirely different scenario. At this point both parties have taken as many precautions as possible to ensure no infection happens.

You have a valid point and anyone who is banging without knowing their partners status should have no legal recourse what so ever.

This is my feeling on the matter yes.

It should be illegal to have sex if you are infected and a jail term should be implemented.

Nonsense. HIV positive people can have perfectly healthy sex lives.

I am sure the stats for HIV are far higher. Sadly we will never know because we don't want to infringe on people's rights, it's better for the people to keep infecting and killing themselves. At least it keeps the population down i guess. So their a benefit to AIDS and perhaps it is better to let it take hold of all the countries world wide. Culling is never a bad thing.

Imagine everyone knowing their status, omg how could we be so silly .

Having worked drawing blood in clinics and been directly involved in HIV testing and management I assure you I have a fear of HIV that borders on the irrational. I would love to see everyone undergoing regular testing (ELISA testing not just those awful Rapid tests) and knowing their status and being responsible. I just don't know if I would be prepared to allow the suspension of human rights to make that a reality.

All I do know is that calling someone that has unprotected sex knowing there is a possibility of infection a "victim" is ridiculous.

 

[porchrat]

The victim believes they are not taking a risk. So sorry, your logic does not fly. If there is mandatory tests and the perp tells the victim he is clean when on record he is not, then he is a murderer.

How does the victim believe they aren't taking a risk? He/she is having unprotected sex. There is ALWAYS a risk. The person that doesn't believe he/she is taking a risk is an idiot.

Most of these victims live in the bush and listen to their sangoma`s and believe in the tokolosh. You would know this if you knew rural SA.

They have made the choice to believe the sangoma over the advice of Western medical professionals. I don't agree with it but if that is their choice then I certainly have no right (or indeed ability) to force them to believe otherwise. Likewise they have no right to force me to believe the sangoma.

Attempting to behave otherwise would just make this country an autocracy.

 

[w1z4rd]

How does the victim believe they aren't taking a risk? He/she is having unprotected sex. There is ALWAYS a risk. The person that doesn't believe he/she is taking a risk is an idiot.

I clearly explained in my post how. Whats hard about the "perp lies about his HIV status" dont you understand? In business if someone lies to you and you get burnt its called fraud. Now all of a sudden cause its sex its okay? Bah. I cant have those kinda double standards.

They have made the choice to believe the sangoma over the advice of Western medical professionals. I don't agree with it but if that is their choice then I certainly have no right (or indeed ability) to force them to believe otherwise. Likewise they have no right to force me to believe the sangoma.

That was so not the point I was even hinting at. No one is forcing anyone to believe anything. wtf... Im simply trying to highlight the psychology of massive parts of our population and how they are different from your urban island. Townies... I tell you.

Attempting to behave otherwise would just make this country an autocracy.

um... ok... :wtf:

 

[killadoob]

Perfectly healthy sex life?

You mean no condom and banging whoever they like? Perhaps if we lived in a world where people were responsible i could agree but AIDS is not accelerating world wide because people are doing the right thing.

In order to stop this disease drastic measures are needed.

 

[porchrat]

I clearly explained in my post how. Whats hard about the "perp lies about his HIV status" dont you understand? In business if someone lies to you and you get burnt its called fraud. Now all of a sudden cause its sex its okay? Bah. I cant have those kinda double standards.

Oh so you're saying the "victim" believes he or she is innocent because despite knowing he/she could take precautions he/she decides to take that other person at his/her word... and obviously because it is impossible for human beings to lie not taking precautions is therefore a reasonable thing to do making the "victim" blameless.

Nope. Sorry. Still an idiot.

That was so not the point I was even hinting at. No one is forcing anyone to believe anything. wtf... Im simply trying to highlight the psychology of massive parts of our population and how they are different from your urban island. Townies... I tell you.

and I'm trying to tell you that what they choose to believe is just that, a choice. When you make an informed choice you take responsibility for the consequences of that choice. This is the basis of our entire legal system.