DA Wants H.I.V Testing Without Consent

[porchrat]

Nope i will believe the stats when we have forced 95% of the population to get tested. Black white yellow or pink, get tested.

Then we can say what is happening.

So you are saying 2/3's of our population at the moment are getting tested? Could you provide me with a link and numbers for this please because wow that is pretty cool IF IT IS THE CASE.

Mila you can tested for bus hitting but only if go get your status checked. I am sure if a sangoma suggested this we would see a huge rise in testing.

Dude seriously when people post links go and read them. The information has been posted. Come on now. First it was talk of tracking devices getting implanted when you go for your test and now this.

Also no, I'm not saying 2/3rds of the population are getting tested. The word "population" has a very specific meaning in statistics and you're using it wrong. Around 2/3rds or so of those attending the various clinics are agreeing to anonymous testing for the purposes of the study. You aren't required by law to take part in medical research studies so that doesn't mean only 2/3rds are getting tested. This 2/3rds that agree to take part is the sample. Using the sample inferences are made on the population.

 

[Sinbad]

Dude seriously when people post links go and read them. The information has been posted. Come on now. First it was talk of tracking devices getting implanted when you go for your test and now this.

Also no, I'm not saying 2/3rds of the population are getting tested. The word "population" has a very specific meaning in statistics and you're using it wrong. Around 2/3rds or so of those attending the various clinics are agreeing to anonymous testing for the purposes of the study. You aren't required by law to take part in medical research studies so that doesn't mean only 2/3rds are getting tested. This 2/3rds that agree to take part is the sample. Using the sample inferences are made on the population.

And I am saying your sample is not representative of South Africa as a whole. Look how limited your sample set is. You can't draw any wider inferences from it. What proportion of the SA population AS A WHOLE are included in the set? 10%?

 

[porchrat]

And I am saying your sample is not representative of South Africa as a whole. Look how limited your sample set is. You can't draw any wider inferences from it. What proportion of the SA population AS A WHOLE are included in the set? 10%?

Don't know, maybe it is in the article. I can assure you that however many it is it is far more than the proportion included in your own personal experiences.

As I asked before what else are you going to use to evaluate the situation? Your own personal anecdotal experiences?

Would it help if I pointed out once again that I'm not saying these statistics are accurate but instead I'm merely using them to demonstrate that we don't actually know that HIV is gathering momentum and it could be a case of it remaining constant?... or would everyone just ignore that again and start asking me how I know these stats are accurate?

 

[killadoob]

They are statistics. If you don't know what statistics are and have a general idea of how they work then go back to university I'm not here to teach you the basics of statistics. Frankly you should know the answers to these questions already.

Unless you have never been to university in which case I apologise I realise not everyone goes to university and takes a course on statistics. Still these basics should be known to you.

Dude please give me the link to the 2/3's getting tested. You said 2/3 get tested so where are the numbers backing this up. Again i will tell you stats are thumb sucking.

LOL porch you actually believe stats that are not based on actually data from actual subjects but are based on system that averages out? That is how we are working with a 7000 a day killer disease , makes sense though considering who runs this country.

I would still like to see the links for the 2/3's of our population getting tested unless that is also a stat and not actual tested numbers. You must have the link that shows 2/3's getting test.

Stats sell. The stats are often quoted from the latest reports. People then parrot them around like they’re fact when most of them are complete bullsh*t. People throw them around at cocktail parties. Often when they do I throw out my favorite statistic: 73.6% of all statistics are made up. I say it deadpanned. Often I’ll get some people look at me like, “really?” ”It’s true. Nielsen just released the number last month.”

 

[Sinbad]

Don't know. I can assure you that however many it is it is far more than the proportion included in your own personal experiences.

Not once have I mentioned personal experiences.
The number of HIV+ people I know I can probably count on one hand. If I extrapolated that like you seem to think I am, I'd say there are like 500 people in SA infected

I am questioning your stats based on healthcare penetration in SA, voluntary testing and voluntary disclosure.

I am not saying that they are not the best stats we have. They are. But we COULD have much more accurate and credible stats.

 

[porchrat]

Dude please give me the link to the 2/3's getting tested. You said 2/3 get tested so where are the numbers backing this up. Again i will tell you stats are thumb sucking.

Like I said, read the links people post. The information has been provided in this thread. Don't blame me when you're too lazy to read what other people go out of their way to find for us. Especially when it is interesting and potentially informative stuff.

As an aside thanks Mila for the interesting read.

LOL porch you actually believe stats that are not based on actually data from actual subjects but are based on system that averages out? That is how we are working with a 7000 a day killer disease , makes sense though considering who runs this country.

Uh... you realise that pretty much every set of statistics works like this right? Even a census doesn't necessarily reach every single person.

The sample size and representativeness changes but ultimately it all involves some degree of inference.

 

[porchrat]

Not once have I mentioned personal experiences.
The number of HIV+ people I know I can probably count on one hand. If I extrapolated that like you seem to think I am, I'd say there are like 500 people in SA infected

So... you missed the question mark at the end of that sentence then... OK.

Seriously though read back you will see I never said I thought you were basing anything on personal experience I merely asked if that is what you would do if you wouldn't want to look at the stats.

I am questioning your stats based on healthcare penetration in SA, voluntary testing and voluntary disclosure.

and so you should. The stats may not be accurate.

I am not saying that they are not the best stats we have. They are.

and as I said if we don't use those to judge what we are doing to the best possible degree of accuracy based on the circumstances then what else could we possibly use? Nothing.

But we COULD have much more accurate and credible stats.

Not in a constitutional democracy with a poorly funded and inept Health department you can't.

 

[killadoob]

Yup but does that mean it's accurate though? Can you say without a doubt the stats spewed out are accurate?

You talk like stats are accurate and considering 75% of all stats are made up i am not sure i buy into it. So you have no link for me showing 2/3's of the population getting tested?

Interesting how people take stats as gospel and don't question their accuracy.

 

[Sinbad]

and so you should. The stats may not be accurate.

and as I said if we don't use those to judge what we are doing to the best possible degree of accuracy based on the circumstances then what else could we possibly use? Nothing.

So isn't drawing conclusions from what may be fundamentally flawed statistics a little bit dangerous? You are arguing that the infection rate is plateauing. This could shape our response to the problem... incorrectly?

You need to know your enemy to fight it effectively.

 

[porchrat]

Yup but does that mean it's accurate though? Can you say without a doubt the stats spewed out are accurate?

Of course not. Nobody can for any set of stats.

You talk like stats are accurate

If you think so then you're illiterate or a zombie not paying attention at all.

So you have no link for me showing 2/3's of the population getting tested?

Like I said they are in the thread go read them.

Interesting how people take stats as gospel and don't question their accuracy.

Luckily I've never met anyone that does this.

 

[porchrat]

So isn't drawing conclusions from what may be fundamentally flawed statistics a little bit dangerous?

Not drawing conclusions on how to proceed with HIV treatment is not an option. What else would you have our government and NGOs base their conclusions on? Tarot card readings? Astrology charts? You've already agreed that this is the best we have at the moment.

You are arguing that the infection rate is plateauing.

No I'm not. I'm arguing that the stats suggest that it could be and so definitively stating that HIV is "gathering momentum" as killadoob did is stupid.

This could shape our response to the problem... incorrectly?

As opposed to what? A response based on no information whatsoever?

You need to know your enemy to fight it effectively.

For sure but even having a little potentially unreliable information is better than basing your decisions on nothing.

 

[killadoob]

So then how can you say aids has plateaued with such confidence?

Do i need some special schooling to ask that? You seem to think so based on the stats which you say only illiterate people would believe, yet you seem to say it without a single question regarding it's accuracy .

Basically that is how things are done in this country, we stat everything and preach it. Pathetic in my opinion. We should have testing stations and people should be going to get tested every year. Of course this will mess with their freedoms well the 1/3 that don't get tested according to your stats.

I am not basing my opinion on nothing, nor am i believing the stats. What i want is concrete facts gathered from testing the majority of our population. Then we can start to fight this disease. Until then i will say we have no idea and i don't think anyone should claim this or that without actual knowledge based on facts and not calculations. This is not the census where it really makes no difference if the population if 50 or 60 million. This is a disease that claims 7000 lives perhaps more perhaps less a day. We should know how many are infected.

 

[porchrat]

So then how can you say aids has plateaued with such confidence?

What confidence? I said the statistics demonstrate a plateau and so you cannot say with confidence that HIV is "gathering momentum". Is English not your first language?

Do i need some special schooling to ask that?

I'm starting to think you may already have had quite enough special schooling.

You seem to think so based on the stats which you say only illiterate people would believe, yet you seem to say it without a single question regarding it's accuracy .

OK seriously am I being punked? Have you not been reading the last few pages of posts? Are you going to ignore everything I type? :wtf:

Basically that is how things are done in this country, we stat everything and preach it. Pathetic in my opinion. We should have testing stations and people should be going to get tested every year. Of course this will mess with their freedoms well the 1/3 that don't get tested according to your stats.

The 2/3rds are a sample, not a population. It isn't a case of 1/3 of the entire country not being tested and 2/3rds being tested. I can't make this concept any simpler for you mate.

 

[Sinbad]

No I'm not. I'm arguing that the stats suggest that it could be and so definitively stating that HIV is "gathering momentum" as killadoob did is stupid.

Your assertion is just as invalid as his IMHO. Flawed stats that suggest one thing are no more valid than non-existant stats suggesting something else.

To get the ideal response, we should get more accurate stats. This should be priority for the government as it is of massive strategic importance to the country as a whole. All this rubbish about privacy and dignity regarding this topic is bad for the country.

Why are people so afraid to get tested? The difference between knowing and not knowing will have a fundamental impact on your quality of life should you be positive... and not knowing isn't going to take any of the disease's power away.

 

[killadoob]

So porch o great one would you rather fight a disease based on samples or actually numbers?

I already know you will go with the sample option though but i am hopeful you won't

 

[porchrat]

Your assertion is just as invalid as his IMHO. Flawed stats that suggest one thing are no more valid than non-existant stats suggesting something else.

Which is why I'm saying we can't be sure.

He is saying "gathering momentum" and I'm saying "hey but look at these stats (the most accurate ones we have so far), they say 'not gathering momentum' so maybe it isn't gathering momentum, don't make definitive statements."

To get the ideal response, we should get more accurate stats. This should be priority for the government as it is of massive strategic importance to the country as a whole. All this rubbish about privacy and dignity regarding this topic is bad for the country.

Sure but we live in a constitutional democracy which means people have the right to do stupid schit that you and I don't agree with.

Why are people so afraid to get tested? The difference between knowing and not knowing will have a fundamental impact on your quality of life should you be positive... and not knowing isn't going to take any of the disease's power away.

To you and I it doesn't make sense but we live in a different environment. I can understand considering this stupid stigma surrounding HIV status why some people don't wish to have their status known.

I know this may sound callous but it isn't my problem. I know my status. I am responsible. Let the idiots fsck their lives up if that is what they want (hoho I have made a funny and I didn't even realise ). Sure do your best to educate them but when someone knows the risks and rolls the dice anyway I have no sympathy.

 

[porchrat]

So porch o great one would you rather fight a disease based on samples or actually numbers?

Samples considering "actually numbers" doesn't exist.

I already know you will go with the sample option though but i am hopeful you won't

You're only hopeful that I will say "actually numbers" because (and correc tme if I'm wrong here) you have no idea how epidemiological studies work.

 

[killadoob]

So hold up here, you don't believe everyone should know their status or what exactly are you arguing here? What is your stance on knowing everyone's status?

Sorry telkom is here and i had to show the lady what a router looks like and ensure she never left with my adsl offline which is about the norm

 

[porchrat]

So hold up here, you don't believe everyone should know their status or what exactly are you arguing here? What is your stance on knowing everyone's status?

Personally I think not knowing your status is stupid. Everyone should know their status and everyone should be responsible (use condoms, don't fsck around etc.). It will make South Africa a better place to live.

At the same time though I realise that you can't force people to know their status just as you can't force everyone to take ARVs or stop taking advice from the sangoma as opposed to qualified medical professionals. It is after all their body, their blood. Not yours or mine. I certainly have no right to strap someone down and take their blood to perform a test and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it.

Sorry telkom is here and i had to show the lady what a router looks like and ensure she never left with my adsl offline which is about the norm

ROFL yea I once had a support person tell me it is impossible to setup a device connected to the Internet to handle unsolicited connection attempts and I was like "well then how the fsck does the Internet work?!? :wtf:".

 

[Sinbad]

Aren't certain vaccinations compulsory?