Death by AIDS prohibited

[simple_simon]

Hmm not sure why so many people are arguing the wrong thing here.

AIDS cannot kill you, AIDS prepares your body to die but doesn't kill you.
So medically it would be correct to say TB, Flu, Common cold but not AIDS.

It's dumb and it causes problems but it is still a fact. I stand by my initial suggestion of adding a 'mitigating circumstances' field to the form.....

Before anyone jumps in and complains again, if you have AIDS and get put in a clean room you won't die of AIDS. That is why AIDS is not the cause of death.

we don't live in a clean room. this comes back to theory and reality. you die because you have aids/HIV...TB and pneumonia are very rarely fatal if you contract these diseases if you are not HIV positive.

 

[GavinMannion]

we don't live in a clean room. this comes back to theory and reality. you die because you have aids/HIV...TB and pneumonia are very rarely fatal if you contract these diseases if you are not HIV positive.

.... ...
This feels like a religious argument, ignore the facts and bash the point until someone quits...

ciao... You can tell people I quit so you win

 

[nivek]

well by the same token they should be banning bullets and not guns, since bullets actually do the killing ...

but government sees things how they want when it suits them..

 

[simple_simon]

.... ...
This feels like a religious argument, ignore the facts and bash the point until someone quits...

ciao... You can tell people I quit so you win

thats a rather funny argument coming from you......considering that is your exact tactic with a lot of your posts...evolution thread anyone?

 

[GavinMannion]

Just heard on the radio the document they fill in does have place for mitigating circumstances, the guy is just trying to get famous.

Take his licence away for blatant arrogance...

Lets not go into evolution here now simple man?

 

[simple_simon]

Just heard on the radio the document they fill in does have place for mitigating circumstances, the guy is just trying to get famous.

Take his licence away for blatant arrogance...

Lets not go into evolution here now simple man?

yes...take away his license which he studied 7 or so years to obtain because of a dispute over beauracratic procedure. think thats a bit harsh. still think he's in the right though. but thats my opinion.

the government is trying to hide its inaction behind...TB and pneumonia deaths....stating look no-one is dying of aids....there's no aids pandemic....only a slight problem with TB and pneumonia.

agreed...leave evolution argument to evolution thread

 

[GavinMannion]

7 years of studying and he doesn't know how to fill in a death certificate?

Since there is a place for AIDS on the document all he has done is bugger up the stats for that 1 person now.

There are medical reasons to state what made a person die and what led to a person dying. He can't just change them now because he disagrees with it. It doesn't work that way and he knows it.

Sensationalist journalism is half the reason this thread exists, that and his arrogance. There are quite accurate stats for AIDS contractions in SA and deaths related to AIDS so I don't know what his problem really is?

Originally I thought he kind of had a point, but it turns out he doesn't?

 

[simple_simon]

Since there is a place for AIDS on the document

source?

There are medical reasons to state what made a person die and what led to a person dying.

source?

 

[GavinMannion]

source?
source?

Just heard on the radio the document they fill in does have place for mitigating circumstances, the guy is just trying to get famous.

Take his licence away for blatant arrogance...

Lets not go into evolution here now simple man?

Like I said I just heard it on the radio while I was in front of the computer.

 

[ejbengine]

Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS or Aids) is a collection of symptoms and infections in humans resulting from the specific damage to the immune system caused by the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV).

---Wikipedia ...hence the phrase "AIDS related illness".Just sounds like a case of semantics.If I have diabetes and I lose all my teeth to the point of not being able to eat, and the diabetes gets out of control, leading to death...do we then say the cause of death is "loss of teeth" or "diabetes" ?

 

[simple_simon]

Like I said I just heard it on the radio while I was in front of the computer.

exactly.....everyone has heard this and that from so and so.

i, like you in most other matters, like to actually make my own opinion based on enough information on a certain topic.

right now, average joe citizen doesn't have enough information to make an informed decision

 

[werner]

There are medical reasons to state what made a person die and what led to a person dying. He can't just change them now because he disagrees with it.

this is making me think...(which is ok, i am capable of thinking sometimes)
as he is a doctor, and as he has had 7 years studyiing (+however many years experience) I would take it that HE IS best informed to state what the patient died of. He is not disagreeing with what caused the patient to die..as he cant disagree with himself. He may disagree with higher/alternative medical bodies and their viewpoints, but as he gets to say what happened, I guess whatever he says must have happened, as he has the qualifications and the experience. So the patient died of aids. Because he said so. Anybody saying anything else is DISAGREEING WITH HIM. He is a state pathologist...how much higher do you go to find out what killed a person?

wicked...I am gonna go have a think about this....

 

[Tassidar]

GavinMinnion, you have struck me as a person who wants to see SA work. Why then are your criticising this person?

Through not reporting death through AIDS, we cannot get accurate information, which inhibits our ability to treat the pandemic. This guy is standing up to the government and saying what he believes is right - much like MyADSL does.

Our government's policy on AIDS has been a complete failure (anyone can see that) and by not having accurate information, the government is better able to disguise its failure. I for one for anything which holds government accountable, as I believe that accountability is one of the most essential aspects of a working democracy. I'm sure that most forumites would agree that the lack of accountability in government is one of the biggest problems facing South Africa today.

Perhaps the best test for whether AIDS was the cause of death is to ask the question: "Would this death have been likely, if AIDS had not been involved?" For example, usually a 25 year old would not die of flu, but with AIDS she might. In this instance, AIDS should be reported as the cause of death. However, in the case where someone has terminal cancer and AIDS, they would have died of cancer anyway, so the cause of death could be reported as cancer.

 

[GavinMannion]

hmm Maybe I am just struggling to explain myself today?

SA actually has a very good record on how many people have died of aids. Unfortunately that list grows everyday because of Garlic and Potato cr@p.

This Dr filled in a patients forms incorrectly on purpose for no other reason other than he doesn't believe in the current procedure. Personally I don't think that is acceptable.

There was a part on the form for him to note Aids and all the other doctors have had no problem doing this.

Death Certificates are public property (AFAIK) and this is the one reason why the second page where all the dirty details are filled in are not available to the public. It's private.

I am very much for this country but I just have a gut feel that this guy is trying to profiteer of someone's death and it just doesn't sit right.

It is a Medically proven FACT that you cannot die from AIDS, no state pathologist can change that FACT without research and peer reviews. He overstepped his position and is now being punished. This should never have even hit the local newspaper never mind national news.

 

[mancombseepgood]

It's called aids related illness... yeah, I agree, this is not news - it's an internal issue. Unfortunately the media seem to think that they need to rock the boat to make the world a better place. I agree that they need to in some circumstances, but it's times like these that I don't wonder why the government doesnt care what the media says.
Somtimes its a little overboard.
The bottom line is that AIDS related deaths should be accurately identified and recorded, but if the guy was just being a poop, then he should be rapped over the knuckles. In the same vein, certainly the government should report AIDS related deaths accurately.

 

[Rkootknir]

source?

For the first one:

5.7 G MEDICAL CERTIFICATE OF CAUSE OF DEATH

Only to be completed by certifying medical practitioner or appointed health professional and in some instances by the District Surgeon or Forensic Pathologist. This block replaces the medical certificate of death. Please complete to the best of your knowledge the causes of death.

In Part 1 the diseases, injuries or complications that caused the death are listed. The immediate cause of death (final disease or condition resulting in death) is stated first (Part 1a). The conditions leading to the immediate cause of death are then listed sequentially and the underlying cause of death is entered last (please refer to the examples of death certification on page 15). Please do not enter mode of dying, for example, cardio-respiratory failure. A specific full medical disease term should be entered. Please note that only one cause is listed per line. The approximate time interval between the disease/conditions and onset of disease and death is important to clarify the actual order of events.

In Part 2 the certifying medical practitioner or appointed health professional and in some instances the District Surgeon/Forensic Pathologist is requested to state other significant conditions contributing to death but not resulting in the underlying cause of death given in Part 1.

TRAINING MANUAL FOR THE DEATH NOTIFICATION FORM

 

[GavinMannion]

source?

Google to the rescue

When a person dies, a medical practitioner is required to complete details about the medical condition that resulted in the death (immediate cause) and also provide details about any conditions that may have led to this (underlying cause) on the death notification form. In some areas where it is not possible for a medical practitioner to complete the death notification, a traditional headman may be authorized to do so.

And a whole lot more information
http://www.mrc.ac.za/bod/faqstatistics.htm

So now what is it about the above paragraph that a professional doctor does not understand.

The lady died from TB or whatever (immediate cause) and AIDS was the underlying cause.

Seriously not complicated, maybe he should work for Telkom

[edit] Rkootknir you stole my thunder

 

[Nick333]

Woohoo another great South African non-issue created and propagated by our great free press.
Don't these assholes realize that they do these causes more damage than good by creating sensationalist issues.

Another victory for the Neil Watson school of activism.

 

[mancombseepgood]

The media's problem is that they speak like they are the last authority on every industry out there - they are under too much pressure to be the first with every story.

Then you look at the hoards of media articles we see (or dont see) on our telecoms issues this side. And I am referring to local news papers (not just the regular guys). There is enough to legitimately write about... just lack of experience in the field.

 

[kilo39]

Dude lying in hospital on a life-support machine. Machine is turned off. What killed him?

Dude picks up a virus; then catches a cold. He dies. What killed him?

Semantics seeking to hide the real truth.

(Personal privacy is one thing: aids statistics are another.) We should know the true figures of people dying of aids (otherwise it is even more of a fiasco.)

All peeps signing up for government health care should be required to do an aids test (this would be an even better measure.)