Deep cycle batteries.

werfie

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I am so confused with all of this already. Every article/website I read tries to explain in a different direction with a whole lot of calculations. I feel like a complete dimwit. Just as I think I understand it, I read a new explanation and calculation.

Can someone just answer me this (without very extensive explanations and technicalities)

If I drive to Makro, buy 10 x 10w Energy Saver Light Bulbs, a 500W inverter and a 102Ah deep cycle battery. How long will all those lights stay on?
 

The_Traveller

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I am so confused with all of this already. Every article/website I read tries to explain in a different direction with a whole lot of calculations. I feel like a complete dimwit. Just as I think I understand it, I read a new explanation and calculation.

Can someone just answer me this (without very extensive explanations and technicalities)

If I drive to Makro, buy 10 x 10w Energy Saver Light Bulbs, a 500W inverter and a 102Ah deep cycle battery. How long will all those lights stay on?

Two questions you need to find out about that inverter to get an accurate backup time...
1. What VDC is it ?
2. How efficient is it?

Point one relates to the battery voltage required to operate the inverter. Could be 24v , which means you would need to wire two 12v batteries in series to operate.

Point two relates to its efficiency, so for example it could be just 80% efficient which means that it can't give you the full 500w , just 400w.

Hope this clears up the basics on the inverter side. The batteries are another discussion on its own.

But let's say the inverter is 80% efficient and it's VDC is 24v and you use 100% of the battery...
100w ( your 10x10w) /24v= 4.1666A
102Ah/4.1666A=24.48 hours
 
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werfie

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Two questions you need to find out about that inverter to get an accurate backup time...
1. What VDC is it ?
2. How efficient is it?

Point one relates to the battery voltage required to operate the inverter. Could be 24v , which means you would need to wire two 12v batteries in series to operate.

Point two relates to its efficiency, so for example it could be just 80% efficient which means that it can't give you the full 500w , just 400w.

Hope this clears up the basics on the inverter side. The batteries are another discussion on its own.

But let's say the inverter is 80% efficient and it's VDC is 24v and you use 100% of the battery...
100w ( your 10x10w) /24v= 4.1666A
102Ah/4.1666A=24.48 hours

Thanks, it makes a bit of sense.

I have the inverter already (blind purchase - so don't know stats), but I am positive it is 12V.

Is it safe to say, that in my scenario of 100w of light bulbs, I (in theory) only require that the inverter is 20% efficient?

So the calc will be :

100w/12v = 8.333A
102aH/8.333A = +- 12hours?

The battery I am talking about is this one?

http://www.makro.co.za/diy/ellies-deep-cycle-battery-270634EA - Is this what I should be looking at?
 

paul5186

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I presume you purchased an inverter with a built in battery charger? Some do not come with chargers.
 

CAPS LOCK

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Thanks, it makes a bit of sense.

I have the inverter already (blind purchase - so don't know stats), but I am positive it is 12V.

Is it safe to say, that in my scenario of 100w of light bulbs, I (in theory) only require that the inverter is 20% efficient?

So the calc will be :

100w/12v = 8.333A
102aH/8.333A = +- 12hours?

The battery I am talking about is this one?

http://www.makro.co.za/diy/ellies-deep-cycle-battery-270634EA - Is this what I should be looking at?

Just a quick correction - efficiency of the invertor Traveller alludes to is the juice required to convert 12V to 220V that the invertor uses - essentially 20% of the battery's capacity won't be available for powering your lights (assuming 80% efficiency). Secondly, when calculating, factor in the damage you will do to a deep cycle battery if you use more than 50% capacity all the time... What ever your need is calculated to be, double that figure in battery capacity...
 

vicv

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I am also planning capacity for batteries, and came up with the following last night. I stand to be corrected, so please correct if incorrect.

In my example last night, I wanted to figure out what I need to run 3 external LED lights for 4 hours (see through load shedding). Each light is 10W.

To determine capacity to last x hours under y load, you first have to determine the current draw.

A = W / V so 30W / 12V = 2.5A.

To get 4 hours, I would need a battery capacity of 2.5A * 4 hours = 10Ah.

Because I want to increase the life of my battery, I don't want to discharge more than 50%. So double capacity to 20Ah.

This is how I best understand it based on what I have picked up in other threads, and would love to know if I am on the right track.

I extended the above to figure out what I would need to run internal lighting on my 24V 2000W inverter - just as an exercise. So applied the following calc.

Internal lights are all LED. I don't see us pushing more than 100W. So...

100W / 24V = 4.17A (assuming all on).
4.17A * 4 hours = 16.7Ah
Then double to keep max 50% drain to 33.33Ah.

I am not going to use my 2000W inverter for this. It would be overkill. My plan is to first get external lights done so my property is not in darkness during load shedding. They are currently on a day/night switch and want to stick in a deep cycle battery with an inverter to keep them on when Eskom does their thing.
Internal lighting is anyway taken care of with a bunch of battery backup emergency lights all over. Will eventually get the normal lights on battery, but not now.

I think using the above calcs, you can safely work out what capacity batteries you need depending on the intended purpose. Please would someone more qualified verify - and correct if necessary.
I was qualified to sell these things about 3 years ago and I believe you are more on point than what I was
 

richjdavies

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I wouldn't buy that one myself. Not because it won't work, but because it won't LAST!. As I said earlier in the thread, it only has a warranty for 12 months, and even then, only to 50% Discharge and 250 cycles.

There are alternative batteries that will last longer (in both senses, they will discharge further without breaking and will last more cycles).

BTW - yes, the calculations can get a bit overwhelming, but what you are asking is like asking "what spark plugs should I put in a car that I'm about to build myself..." There are a tonne of options, because none of it is built yet.

To summarise some excellent answers (not just by me ;) )
1. Your Amp-hours need to be worked out - like we did right at the start (find your watts, find your watt-hours, and then divide by the battery voltage)
2. Figure out your 'discharge' current - i.e. the PEAK power draw from the battery... this can be more complicated especially if you need to start motors etc. For electronics and lights etc, this is likely to not be more than double your watts from above. Your battery needs to be able to support that FLOW in AMPS. For example a 100Ah battery may only provide 80Ah if you're drawing 20A at a time.
3. Finally - once you know the Amp-Hours you want, and the Amps you need... go shopping and look at lots of different batteries. For your requirements you want a battery (or string of batteries) that last the number of cycles at the Depth of Discharge you want. This is the hard bit - one person might prefer to discharge to 80% knowing his batteries will last one third of the time of discharging them to 40%, but then he only needs to buy half the amount... it's a choice that depends on your financials, how long you want the system to last etc... i.e. there's no point buying a battery that will last 10000 cycles, if you're only cycling once per day, because it will die for other reasons before the 27 years of cycling is up...

Batteries are little chemical-electrical factories that have a limited amount of flow and storage space and they get tired if not used right. To use an analogy think of less like a water or fuel tank and more like a balloon. If you blow it up too much, or squeeze it too hard you might break it... If you just let a little bit of air out then blow it up, it will probably stay rigid, but if you blow it all the way up and then let is go all the way down, you'll stress it and next time you blow it up it won't work as well / might break.
 

Gaz{M}

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Is it safe to say, that in my scenario of 100w of light bulbs, I (in theory) only require that the inverter is 20% efficient?

So the calc will be :

100w/12v = 8.333A
102aH/8.333A = +- 12hours?

Now work out 80% of 12 hours (because you loose some battery capacity from losses and inverter heat/efficiency)

= 12hours x 80% = 9.6hours

And you should not discharge the battery to 0% charge. Work on 30% up to 50% maximum.

= 9.6 hours x 30% = 2.88 hours.
OR
= 9.6 hours x 50% = 4.8 hours.

So if you run your 100W lights for around 3 hours, the battery will last many years. If you run them for 4.8 hours, the battery will last a few years less, but still give you plenty.

If you run your 100W till the battery is flat (12 hours), it will be junk in under a year.

EDIT: When you are searching for a battery, look how many cycles it gives at a particular discharge %. All batteries should come with this information.

e.g. 100% discharge, 100 cycles
80% discharge, 200 cycles
etc.

EDIT 2: That Ellies (Excis) Battery cannot give 8.33 Amps for 12 hours. It is only able to give 5Amps for 20 Hours to give 102Ah. So the capacity at 8.33 Amps is more like 11 hours or less. That is why you must look at the battery data sheet. It will tell you what effective "capacity" in Ah a battery has at a particular current draw e.g. 20 Amps only 4 hours, not 5 hours. So it isn't as simple as going 102Ah/8.33 A = 12 hours.
 
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Splinter

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About to buy 12 x 12v100ah DC Gel for R2400 a pop. If anyone knows where to buy cheaper, please let me know asap. TIA !

A question if I may. 12 batteries would cost R28800, besides any other equipment needed. Why are you choosing a battery powered UPS type setup (it seems) as opposed to say a 6.5KVa Honda Inverter generator for R36k?
 

The_Traveller

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A question if I may. 12 batteries would cost R28800, besides any other equipment needed. Why are you choosing a battery powered UPS type setup (it seems) as opposed to say a 6.5KVa Honda Inverter generator for R36k?

Because its not noisy, its seamless , doesn't need as much maintenance, and I can eventually hook up panels to create my own energy/power.
 

Splinter

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Because its not noisy, its seamless , doesn't need as much maintenance, and I can eventually hook up panels to create my own energy/power.

Thanks. Although I don't quite get the less maintenance part - from what I'm reading these batteries need to be "maintained" as in ensuring they are not overcharged or overused plus no matter what they will eventually need replacing after a few years? And until you have panels hooked up you are at the mercy of Eskom for power to charge your batteries?

Although long term it looks like prices of panels will come down and gain in effeciency.
 

The_Traveller

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Thanks. Although I don't quite get the less maintenance part - from what I'm reading these batteries need to be "maintained" as in ensuring they are not overcharged or overused plus no matter what they will eventually need replacing after a few years? And until you have panels hooked up you are at the mercy of Eskom for power to charge your batteries?

Although long term it looks like prices of panels will come down and gain in effeciency.

A good quality UPS/Inverter manages the batteries automatically. That's why it is important not to get fooled by the cheaper products on the market, especially with batteries. So in light of that, the only maintenance I would need to do is check on the batteries like once every 6 months and make sure they look ok. It is also easy to just disconnect them and use an analyser to do more deeper tests.

As I said in another thread, my personal system 3kw UPS with 8 x 12v100ah gave me a whopping 25hour backup with 30% power remaining. So yeah if Eskom really does mess us around with daily 24hour power cuts, then a battery backup system isn't really the way to go.
 
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akescpt

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screwed either here. eishkom screwing us with no power. but cost of alternatives is also prohibitive. just pi$$es me off. we have to make provision but the initial outlay is big. been to like 10 shops just to check for rechargeable light bulbs. everyone is sold out that ive been to.
 
F

Fudzy

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How much is it going to cost to get rid of the dead batteries in a couple years time?
 

richjdavies

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How much is it going to cost to get rid of the dead batteries in a couple years time?

It's more the other way around. Dead batteries are worth a lot of money. If someone has the facilities near you, they'll probably pay you for them. To refurbish a battery doesn't really take much and then they are almost as good as new.

I'm sure in the next few years we'll see more and more people offering battery refurbishment services (in the cities at least)... just takes for there to be a demand.
 

DominionZA

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It's more the other way around. Dead batteries are worth a lot of money. If someone has the facilities near you, they'll probably pay you for them. To refurbish a battery doesn't really take much and then they are almost as good as new.

I'm sure in the next few years we'll see more and more people offering battery refurbishment services (in the cities at least)... just takes for there to be a demand.
Sigh. I just turfed out 2 x 102Ah batteries. Wish I had known this.
 

CAPS LOCK

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It's more the other way around. Dead batteries are worth a lot of money. If someone has the facilities near you, they'll probably pay you for them. To refurbish a battery doesn't really take much and then they are almost as good as new.

I'm sure in the next few years we'll see more and more people offering battery refurbishment services (in the cities at least)... just takes for there to be a demand.

What is meant by refurbished? Would they use the existing components and restore them to "new" condition?
 
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