Do you think forcing vaccination is ethical ?

[porchrat]

uneducated people are not getting vaccinations then are a danger to society.
uneducated people are not using condoms and are a danger to society.

Agreed.

Thing is that with condom usage ALL PEOPLE INVOLVED can consent to taking the risk of having sex without a condom. Not so with vaccinations. Invalid comparison is invalid... AGAIN.

the state forcing people to get vaccinations is effectively the same as the state forcing kids to get circumcised to curve HIV. the state cannot put a condom on your dick or make sure you follow your anti-biotic course through; there are always other once off ways of making a difference however.

Except forcing kids to get circumcised won't stop HIV. Not even close. Forcing condom usage might but again all parties involved are actively choosing to take the risk when it comes to not using a condom.

Rape is obviously an exception but that is already illegal and IMO it should be a harsher sentence if the individual who committed the rape knew he/she was HIV positive and didn't use protection.

even making vaccinations "mandatory" does not mean that you will reach everyone. you just need one photographer to go out to a distant township and come back with every disease imaginable.

You don't need to be able to reach everyone, just the herd immunity threshold. Of course there will be people who for logistical reasons cannot be reached and there will be people who cannot take vaccines due to allergies or being immunocompromised. That doesn't matter, the disease can still be controlled. I suggest you read up on the concept of herd immunity before commenting further.

That isn't the same thing as irresponsibly refusing a vaccine because you are an ignorant tool that thinks vaccines cause autism.

 

[STS]

The idiots that have no faith in vaccinations are ignorant antiscience fools that can't back it up in any meaningful manner. The entire planet cannot be expected to put itself at risk for entirely unfounded and irrational beliefs.

When you behave irresponsibly and in doing so put others at risk. Duh.

LOL a doctor telling people that vaccines don't work or that they cause autism should lose his/her license to practice. That is destructive garbage.

LOL the odds of a kid getting sick from a vaccine are infinitely lower than the dangers associated with untreatable deadly diseases with no adequate vaccination regiments in place.

this is not about being anti-science - this is about freedom. millions of people of people are put at risk every day due to incorrect weather forecasts, recalled vehicles, recalled anything basically. People are now arguing that Ritalin may actually be harmful for kids. Scienctists now say that maybe Omega 3 actually ISN'T good for you. Wait, we've changed our mind on vitamins, they're not as important as we first thought. Nevermind, they actually are.

I'm not arguing vaccinations are bad, i'm arguing that NOBODY can force you to do anything against your will, if it harms someone you love. Even if it's the law, it does not make it morally right.

This is like the pushing the man in front of the train scenario to save more people. There is no reason to doubt a vaccination, but if everyone in the class dies from a botched vaccination, and the one woman didn't want to give her daughter the vaccination and you forced her, who will be held responsible?

 

[Nanfeishen]

Do you think it would be ethical for governments to FORCE childhood vaccinations irrelevant of religious or any other reason (apart of medical) for one to qualify from being exempt ?

No, nanny state mentality, even worse "Big Brother" mentality emerges, where the notion grows that "government know best" , never a good thing.
It equates to saying government has the right to perform medical experiments on you or your children, via vaccination.

While vaccinations do provide relief or act preventatively in majority of cases, it is is also known that they can cause complications for many patients.

So forced mandatory no, educated choice yes.

 

[Nerfherder]

Vaccines should be mandatory but not forced since every person has the right to reject treatment.

Vaccination is not a treatment for you... its a treatment for every one else.

 

[icyrus]

history is full of people that can say "told you so". people have done stupid things in the past thinking that it was for the good of humanity and things went sour. people should have a right to choose what they receive and what their kids receive, and if they refuse it, they should be informed again, patiently. you cannot force people to take vaccinations just as you cannot force peopel to be christians and go to church

You should not be forced to have vaccinations, but it should be mandatory in any modern society. If you still choose not to have vaccinations then you should find another society that is happy to have you be a burden to them as you have no place in modern society.

 

[STS]

Agreed.

Thing is that with condom usage BOTH PEOPLE INVOLVED can consent to taking the risk of having sex without a condom. Not so with vaccinations. Invalid comparison is invalid... AGAIN.

UNEDUCATED. sex isn't the only way HIV spreads. Does a child being born deserve to have HIV?

Except forcing kids to get circumcised won't stop HIV. Not even close. Forcing condom usage might but again all parties involved are actively choosing to take the risk when it comes to not using a condom.

forcing a kid to get a poloio shot does not stop them from dying from polio. there are booster shots for a reason.

Rape is obviously an exception but that is already illegal and IMO it should be a harsher sentence if the individual who committed the rape knew he/she was HIV positive and didn't use protection.

likewise knowingly sending your kid to school with a dangerous virus should be akin to sending them to school with a weapon

You don't need to be able to reach everyone, just the herd immunity threshold. Of course there will be people who for logistical reasons cannot be reached and there will be people who cannot take vaccines due to allergies or being immunocompromised. That doesn't matter, the disease can still be controlled. I suggest you read up on the concept of herd immunity before commenting further.

That isn't the same thing as irresponsibly refusing a vaccine because you are an ignorant tool that thinks vaccines cause autism.

i'm saying simply because you and i support vaccinations, doesn't mean that the next person HAS to. there are a lot of things here that members disagree with that the majority of the population is fine with.

if a child does die from a vaccination, who is responsible to be put in jail or death row? there is a reason that so many warnings exist along with taking a vaccination

 

[STS]

You should not be forced to have vaccinations, but it should be mandatory in any modern society. If you still choose not to have vaccinations then you should find another society that is happy to have you be a burden to them as you have no place in modern society.

that is like saying if you're not happy with tax, find another society that doesn't pay tax.

tell me, if a child does die from a vaccination and it was forced, who will be held responsible for the murder of that child?

 

[Sinbad]

that is like saying if you're not happy with tax, find another society that doesn't pay tax.

tell me, if a child does die from a vaccination and it was forced, who will be held responsible for the murder of that child?

Is it murder or is it natural selection?

 

[STS]

i think forcing a vaccination on someone is as horrible as forcing someone to carry a pregnancy through if they know the child is going to be born with disabilities.

everyone in society can be persuaded, there is never a need to force. you can bar the child from entering school, you can bar them from special treatment, etc, but you cannot force a mother to hold the child down against her will

 

[Nerfherder]

No, nanny state mentality, even worse "Big Brother" mentality emerges, where the notion grows that "government know best" , never a good thing.
It equates to saying government has the right to perform medical experiments on you or your children, via vaccination.

While vaccinations do provide relief or act preventatively in majority of cases, it is is also known that they can cause complications for many patients.

So forced mandatory no, educated choice yes.

Got nothing do do with a nanny state.... or even big brother.

I also don't think that they should be forced... I do however think that they should be freely available, accessible and encouraged.

It should be one of those things where its harder to not have the vaccination then to just go have it done.

Non-vac's should be fringe, home schooled and wear a scarlet letter (Just kidding).

I believe with some vaccinations you should have a choice, but others should be strongly encouraged.

 

[porchrat]

this is not about being anti-science - this is about freedom.

Those against vaccinations are either ignorant or anti-science.

millions of people of people are put at risk every day due to incorrect weather forecasts, recalled vehicles, recalled anything basically.

This has nothing to do with vaccinations. We all know forecasts are predictions and not set in stone. However when it is determined that a fault that should have been spotted by a responsible auto manufacturer, results in death that manufacturer is punished. Seems to actually support my point, not counter it.

People are now arguing that Ritalin may actually be harmful for kids. Scienctists now say that maybe Omega 3 actually ISN'T good for you. Wait, we've changed our mind on vitamins, they're not as important as we first thought. Nevermind, they actually are.

Vitamins and ritalin affect YOU AND ONLY YOU. They don't put others at risk. You want to refuse ritalin or vitamins then you go right ahead. Not the same thing at all. (this is the whole "putting others at risk" thing I was talking about... do you not read my posts??? )

I'm not arguing vaccinations are bad, i'm arguing that NOBODY can force you to do anything against your will, if it harms someone you love. Even if it's the law, it does not make it morally right.

Of course people can force you to do something against your will. Prison is a prime example. Very few people willingly go to prison. Would you call prison a violation of rights?... shall we release all those prisoners and shut down Correctional Services?

Certain rights are not inalienable. Not vaccinating your kids puts others at risk. You do not have the right to put others at risk without their informed consent.

This is like the pushing the man in front of the train scenario to save more people. There is no reason to doubt a vaccination, but if everyone in the class dies from a botched vaccination, and the one woman didn't want to give her daughter the vaccination and you forced her, who will be held responsible?

Right there it is. There is no reason to doubt the vaccination. Those that do are behaving irrationally and their irrational behaviour is putting others at risk. The world cannot bow to dangerous irrationality. Case closed.

 

[STS]

Is it murder or is it natural selection?

natural selection is dealing with the disease like a tough guy in the first place, and not becoming a nanny and criticising everyone's health choices as to what they smoke, drink or take

 

[Nerfherder]

natural selection is dealing with the disease like a tough guy in the first place, and not becoming a nanny and criticising everyone's health choices as to what they smoke, drink or take

Health choices that affect other people.

 

[icyrus]

that is like saying if you're not happy with tax, find another society that doesn't pay tax.

You would compare tax with endangering the lives of everyone else in society?

tell me, if a child does die from a vaccination and it was forced, who will be held responsible for the murder of that child?

Sure as long as we can hold the parents of unvaccinated kids responsible for mass murder when an outbreak claims thousands of lives.

 

[STS]

Vitamins and ritalin affect YOU AND ONLY YOU. They don't put others at risk. You want to refuse ritalin or vitamins then you go right ahead. Not the same thing at all. (this is the whole "putting others at risk" thing I was talking about... do you not read my posts??? )

so say it causes depression and suicidal thoughts, the kid goes and shoots up a school. doesn't matter, not a vaccination

Of course people can force you to do something against your will. Prison is a prime example. Very few people willingly go to prison. Would you call prison a violation of rights?... shall we release all those prisoners and shut down Correctional Services?

they can also throw homosexuals in jail for protesting peacefully or tell people what to do with their body if they're raped. what is your point?

Certain rights are not inalienable. Not vaccinating your kids puts others at risk. You do not have the right to put others at risk without their informed consent.

your kids are at risk in any case from diseases every day. small pox and the vaccination don't kill you - suddenly, bird flu.

Right there it is. There is no reason to doubt the vaccination. Those that do are behaving irrationally and their irrational behaviour is putting others at risk. The world cannot bow to dangerous irrationality. Case closed.

so because they're irrational, you're going to hold them down and force something on them?

this is where i get stuck between the idiots screaming "IT'S BAD BECAUSE AN IMAGINARY PERSON IN THE GUY SAYS SO" and the other camp screaming "IT'S SCIENCE AND SCIENCE HAS NEVA EVA EVA EVA EVA DONE ANYTHING BAD!"

 

[STS]

You would compare tax with endangering the lives of everyone else in society?

Sure as long as we can hold the parents of unvaccinated kids responsible for mass murder when an outbreak claims thousands of lives.

go make a law then for both. i'll wait.

 

[w1z4rd]

With so many people being bull****ted by the dodgy anti-vaccination people it might be a good idea. Unvaccinated children are a risk to your children. Perhaps tie it in with public education admittance like they used to in the past.

 

[STS]

Health choices that affect other people.

but what about bad health choices that affect others? beyond vaccinations, certain drugs the mother takes affect children negatively and patients with mental diseases negatively.

the flu shot i took made me extremely sick, to the point that i had to take a week off of work. if i was fired, how negative would that have been for my family? at least i wouldn't die from the flu right?

 

[porchrat]

UNEDUCATED. sex isn't the only way HIV spreads. Does a child being born deserve to have HIV?

You can reduce the risk of mother to child transmission to a very negligible number through the appropriate medical treatments. Again refusing those treatments when you have the option to take them should carry a penalty and require the government to take action.

forcing a kid to get a poloio shot does not stop them from dying from polio. there are booster shots for a reason.

Same logic goes for booster shots. Should be mandatory. I don't know why I would even need to mention this. I obviously consider the booster to be part of the entire vaccination regime. :wtf:

likewise knowingly sending your kid to school with a dangerous virus should be akin to sending them to school with a weapon

I agree that it is irresponsible parenting to send a kid to school knowing he/she has some sort of contagion you know could cause irreparable harm to others. It should carry a penalty. I certainly wouldn't want my kid going to school with a kid that just contracted the Ebola virus for example.

i'm saying simply because you and i support vaccinations, doesn't mean that the next person HAS to.

Sure, they can be an irresponsible irrational idiot. Doesn't mean the rest of humanity needs to face the consequences of that idiocy. Mandatory vaccinations.

there are a lot of things here that members disagree with that the majority of the population is fine with.

Sure. Majority rule doesn't automatically make something justifiable. My point is that it brings risk to others without their consent and for that reason it is justifiable. I never said it was justifiable because the majority agree with it.

if a child does die from a vaccination, who is responsible to be put in jail or death row? there is a reason that so many warnings exist along with taking a vaccination

Depends on why the child died. If it was an allergic reaction then, IMO, the doctor is liable because he/she should have checked on that before administering that vaccine. Allergy tests don't take long, I know I've performed them.

 

[binkybozo]

It should be forced.

I will say why. My son was 10 months old and we were in the market and behind us in the checkout was a 2-3 year old and when I looked closely at her I realized that the child had chicken pox. My son was still too young for a chicken pox vaccine at that point. Another time. We were at Clicks for one of my sons vaccines and the child about 9-10 years old in front of us had the mumps (so the sister said), my son was still too young to get the mumps vaccine.

A lot of parents tend to take their kids out when they are sick, it is wrong and it exposes other children who are either too young or have health issues (and can't get the vaccines) to potentially dangerous illnesses.