Do you think forcing vaccination is ethical ?

[STS]

Got nothing do do with a nanny state.... or even big brother.

I also don't think that they should be forced... I do however think that they should be freely available, accessible and encouraged.

It should be one of those things where its harder to not have the vaccination then to just go have it done.

Non-vac's should be fringe, home schooled and wear a scarlet letter (Just kidding).

I believe with some vaccinations you should have a choice, but others should be strongly encouraged.

this.

i am pro-vaccinations, but you can't FORCE somebody to take them. as the responsible parents and guardian of the child, they have to make the decision, not the state. that is my only argument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine#Safety

 

[porchrat]

so say it causes depression and suicidal thoughts, the kid goes and shoots up a school. doesn't matter, not a vaccination

I very clearly said YOU AND ONLY YOU. If it can be demonstrated that it affects not just you but that it puts others at risk without their consent then mandatory medication for you.

they can also throw homosexuals in jail for protesting peacefully or tell people what to do with their body if they're raped. what is your point?

your kids are at risk in any case from diseases every day. small pox and the vaccination don't kill you - suddenly, bird flu.

I'm well aware of those risks and I consent to them. Entirely different. Again I have made these points before.

so because they're irrational, you're going to hold them down and force something on them?

Yes. Someone who isn't rational doesn't get the right to make decisions. This is why we don't recognise contracts signed by crazy people as valid. Duh. You must be a competent adult human being in order to get the rights afforded to competent adult human beings. If you decide to do something you know is going to put others at risk (like hopping in your car and driving down the pavement where pedestrians are walking around) then it is the government's obligation to stop you in order to keep the rest of us safe.

this is where i get stuck between the idiots screaming "IT'S BAD BECAUSE AN IMAGINARY PERSON IN THE GUY SAYS SO" and the other camp screaming "IT'S SCIENCE AND SCIENCE HAS NEVA EVA EVA EVA EVA DONE ANYTHING BAD!"

Well one side has mountains of evidence. In fact epidemiology involves the largest most convincing piles of evidence one could ever hope to practically obtain. While the other side has ... well... nothing.

 

[Nanfeishen]

Got nothing do do with a nanny state.... or even big brother.

Would have to disagree

IMHO, it is another stepping stone in the constant, insidious, unabated creeping authoritarian mindset, threatening freedom of individual choice.
Frog - boiling water.

Non-vac's should be fringe, home schooled and wear a scarlet letter (Just kidding).

Hmmmm, interesting - A lesson from history perhaps ?, the unvaccinated = unclean, ostracised, marked, condemned.

 

[shogun]

Well one side has mountains of evidence. In fact epidemiology involves the largest most convincing piles of evidence one could ever hope to practically obtain. While the other side has ... well... nothing.

This.

The fact that a horrendous disease has been almost completely eradicated is proof enough that vaccines do their job, with very little no side effects. Entire generations of human beings have taken them. If for a moment we HAD to entertain the notion that vaccines have a remote chance of damage, why should one persons child get to hide behind the rest of society by allowing them to take all the (however remote) risk associated with a vaccine? And at the same time become a person capable of spreading such a disease. If no one took the vaccine, polio would be very prevalent, and people would be very willing to take the remote risk of a vaccine side effect vs the very real risk of contracting polio. So why now, when there is a general resistance to the disease is it suddenly OK for some people to bring that polio risk back again?

Oh, and let's not talk about flu vaccines, let's keep it to those that cover diseases related to death and severe change in life style (e.g. polio).

You should be compelled to reduce life threatening risks to others wherever possible.

 

[shogun]

Would have to disagree

IMHO, it is another stepping stone in the constant, insidious, unabated creeping authoritarian mindset, threatening freedom of individual choice.
Frog - boiling water.

Rubbish, vaccination programs have nothing to do with authoritarian rule, and everything to do with the safety of the entire population. This isn't a case of internet censorship, public immunization programs have been around for decades.

When there's a massive polio outbreak, you'll likely be one of the first to cry government incompetence no? By that same notion you'd argue taxes are bad.

 

[STS]

This.

The fact that a horrendous disease has been almost completely eradicated is proof enough that vaccines do their job, with very little no side effects. Entire generations of human beings have taken them. If for a moment we HAD to entertain the notion that vaccines have a remote chance of damage, why should one persons child get to hide behind the rest of society by allowing them to take all the (however remote) risk associated with a vaccine? And at the same time become a person capable of spreading such a disease. If no one took the vaccine, polio would be very prevalent, and people would be very willing to take the remote risk of a vaccine side effect vs the very real risk of contracting polio. So why now, when there is a general resistance to the disease is it suddenly OK for some people to bring that polio risk back again?

Oh, and let's not talk about flu vaccines, let's keep it to those that cover diseases related to death and severe change in life style (e.g. polio).

You should be compelled to reduce life threatening risks to others wherever possible.

vaccinations AND a healthy society contributed to it. the world is full of un-vaccinated people who stay healthy, stay clean and don't get sick. vaccinations are again, more beneficial for kids that are developing and do not stay very healthy and very clean.

even people that PRODUCE vaccines tell you that receiving a disease the natural way makes you more resistant to the disease in the future, if you catch it at all, and boosters are often required because the vaccines lack the strength.

vaccinations stop a disease from getting a foot hold and this was the case with small pox. people need to be INFORMED how a vaccination is made, what the side effects are and WHY there are side effects, NOT FORCED.

edit: vaccines also either use dead or weakened diseases. these weakened diseases can still make you sick, as i discovered.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

this.

i am pro-vaccinations, but you can't FORCE somebody to take them. as the responsible parents and guardian of the child, they have to make the decision, not the state. that is my only argument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine#Safety

How do you feel about driver's licenses?

Also, regarding liability. Should we hold the parents liable if they refuse to vaccinate their children and thereby increase the chances of these diseases spreading? Diseases that kill people. Don't take Jenny McCarthy's side, STS, you're better than that.

She's not an ignorant, uneducated parent living in rural Eastern Cape who doesn't have access to information regarding vaccination. Yet she actively spreads lies, misinformation and debunked piffle.

The risks of not-vaccinating on the whole are far worse than those associated with vaccination.

Give this a read:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm

 

[Nerfherder]

Would have to disagree

IMHO, it is another stepping stone in the constant, insidious, unabated creeping authoritarian mindset, threatening freedom of individual choice.
Frog - boiling water.

Its just the default response, I am being forced to do something so its part of a nanny state mindset.

Driving on the correct side of the road - nanny state
Police enforcing the law - nanny state
not allowed to blow stuff up - nanny state
Have to pay tax - nanny state.

Hmmmm, interesting - A lesson from history perhaps ?, the unvaccinated = unclean, ostracised, marked, condemned.

you said it.

 

[Skywalker42]

The truth is, there have been several court cases where families have been granted damage pay-outs due to what vaccines and their ingredients have done to their children. The cases are directly linked to autism and brain damage. UPDATE: I do feel that even if only a 51% majority in decision is needed, the cases are plaintiff vs. The Secretary of Human Services. If the statement that vaccines had no link to autism was completely factual, these people would not have a case against one entity that would surely have a lot of firepower around the issue.
Regardless, their victory illustrates some important factors. In terms of the size of the cases, there are an estimated 5,000 additional cases still awaiting court dates. The reason why it’s much harder and why a class action lawsuit is not possible is because the government inserted a law to protect vaccine makers after they were being forced to pay out billions in damages to families. It came a point where enough was enough when it came to their loss in profit so the gov’t stepped in to assist, unfortunately this isn’t favorable for the people but only business.

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/CAMPBELL-SMITH.MOJABI-PROFFER.12.13.2012.pdf

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/MORAN.LAWSON011211.pdf

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/CAMPBELLSMITH.%20DOE77082710.pdf

 

[STS]

How do you feel about driver's licenses?

Also, regarding liability. Should we hold the parents liable if they refuse to vaccinate their children and thereby increase the chances of these diseases spreading? Diseases that kill people. Don't take Jenny McCarthy's side, STS, you're better than that.

She's not an ignorant, uneducated parent living in rural Eastern Cape who doesn't have access to information regarding vaccination. Yet she actively spreads lies, misinformation and debunked piffle.

The risks of not-vaccinating on the whole are far worse than those associated with vaccination.

Give this a read:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm

when i read "force", i imagined people coming around to schools and giving them their own vaccinations which would leave the parents decision out of the matter completely. if it is mandatory, i think it's important that the parents accompany the child and are given an option as to where they would like to go, as medical professionals and facilities differ.

the problem is that there ARE people that have kids that have died from vaccinations, and they took their child in fully trusting and willingly to help their child. even wikipedia admits that this is rare but happens. the question is if these parents didn't take their kid there, would they have still been alive today?

people should understand WHY the kids need the vaccinations, and not be ignorant like a lot of parents that simply sign a form and think their kid will be safe.

i already have a chart of when my son needs his vaccinations, when he should get them, what is coming up, etc. who is going to follow up and make sure kids have this if not the schools?

 

[longboy]

Nobody in my family has ever been vaccinated against anything, no major childhood dieases either. Too many stories of kids dying/getting autism etc from vaccines nowadays.

 

[w1z4rd]

Nobody in my family has ever been vaccinated against anything, no major childhood dieases either. Too many stories of kids dying/getting autism etc from vaccines nowadays.

*Note to self* dont let my kids play with your kids. You put my kids at risk with your cluelessness.

 

[STS]

Its just the default response, I am being forced to do something so its part of a nanny state mindset.

Driving on the correct side of the road - nanny state
Police enforcing the law - nanny state
not allowed to blow stuff up - nanny state
Have to pay tax - nanny state.




you said it.

i think the issue is doing something you don't want to do that causes the instance of a nanny state, ie change in laws. if you've never had to declare your private emails, why should you do it now? if you don't WANT to drive, why should you be taught how? if you don't suddenly want cameras in your office watching you while you work, why should there be?

this is why people need to understand more about vaccines. nobody told me that when i got my flu shot, that i had a chance of getting sick, i was encouraged and after that i will never get another flu shot again. i'd rather eat healthy, stay warm and stay clean

 

[STS]

*Note to self* dont let my kids play with your kids. You put my kids at risk with your cluelessness.

and they're still alive, that should be testimony to something

 

[w1z4rd]

 

[Skywalker42]

Lawmakers Look into Federal Response to Rising Rates of Autism

The House Oversight Committee Hearing on Autism was held in Washington D.C. on November 29, 2012

Earlier this year it was announced that autism rates had reached 1 out of every 88 children in the United States. Congress finally held hearings on this national crisis yesterday, and yet the mainstream media has completely ignored the over 4 hours of testimony. Below we share some of the highlights with comments from lawmakers concerned and shocked about this national epidemic.

“We have gone from one in 10,000 children with autism to one in 88. It is worse than an epidemic, it is an absolute disaster.”

Bill Posey asks some tough questions: “Has the CDC done a study comparing vaccinated children with unvaccinated children yet?” Reply from Dr. Boyle: “we have never studied vaccinated versus unvaccinated.” Rep. Posey asks if research by Paul Thorsen clearing thimerosal from causing autism has been validated, and calls him a “humongous scumbag” and one of the most wanted men on the face of the earth. Learn more about Dr. Paul Thorsen here. Dr. Boyle replies that that two studies Dr. Thorsen participated in do not invalidate the “larger body” of research on thimerosal and vaccines, and yet just moments before stating that, she admitted that the CDC had only conducted two studies on the issue.


Watch the entire hearing here: http://www.c-span.org/Events/Lawmakers-Look-into-Federal-Response-to-Rising-Rates-of-Autism/10737436113/

 

[w1z4rd]

and they're still alive, that should be testimony to something

Yeah, I dont let them play with non-vaccinated kids. Luckily they go to a proper school that has vaccination requirements. I dont put my children near dodgy unvaccinated kids. I dont want my children to pay the price because the parents of other kids are too stupid to vaccinate. Fking disgusting people. sis

Only reason your kids are protected is because of the "herd affect". If enough people vaccinate the ****ty ones that dont are often sheltered by the rest of the people who are vaccinating. When too many people follow the ****ty people then the whole population will suffer. I will not be a part of that thanks.

I honestly believe people who dont vaccinate their kids should be held up for child abuse. Theyre clearly too irresponsible to be parents.

 

[w1z4rd]

 

[STS]

Yeah, I dont let them play with non-vaccinated kids. Luckily they go to a proper school that has vaccination requirements. I dont put my children near dodgy unvaccinated kids. I dont want my children to pay the price because the parents of other kids are too stupid to vaccinate. Fking disgusting people. sis

Only reason your kids are protected is because of the "herd affect". If enough people vaccinate the ****ty ones that dont are often sheltered by the rest of the people who are vaccinating. When too many people follow the ****ty people then the whole population will suffer. I will not be a part of that thanks.

I honestly believe people who dont vaccinate their kids should be held up for child abuse. Theyre clearly too irresponsible to be parents.

We barbarians must be too much for you

 

[Good.Fellow]

I think vaccinations are dangerous.