Doom Eternal

Nemoneiros

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To test the system and boredom, I've requested a refund (tldrs):

1st attempt - Additional software makes the system unstable + can't launch the game without it: Denied
2nd attempt - Politely thrown the legal book at them: 12+ hours, still open
 

Nemoneiros

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Allegedly the DAC for SP is going to be dropped, very soon.
 
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Fulcrum29

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Strange how everyone is now pulling one on Bethesda, but complain to death about cheaters in other games? Can you play single player without the Denuvo Anti-Cheat?

Almost all multiplayer games have the same 'intrusive' anti-cheat.

Punkbuster, EAC, BattleEye... people don't complain in the CoD thread.

Sorry, it isn't the same, it is Denuvo...
 

Nemoneiros

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Strange how everyone is now pulling one on Bethesda, but complain to death about cheaters in other games? Can you play single player without the Denuvo Anti-Cheat?

Almost all multiplayer games have the same 'intrusive' anti-cheat.

Punkbuster, EAC, BattleEye... people don't complain in the CoD thread.

Sorry, it isn't the same, it is Denuvo...
Has to start somewhere? Ghandi making salt... etc etc.

Sadly gamers will never unite and fully drop support for a digital store or an IP/Publisher. That would be a sure way to reform them very quickly via the lack of dollor bills. I mean queue dstv-rsa and their neverending loyalists.

Finally, both attempts were denied for my refund adventures; testing the system and well boredom. Steam support isn't so bad when you are not dealing with their bot-system, the one support agent I dealt with was actually quite polite and trying to do something rather than nothing.
 
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Fulcrum29

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Has to start somewhere? Ghandi making salt... etc etc.

Sadly gamers will never unite and fully drop support for a digital store or an IP/Publisher. That would be a sure way to reform them very quickly via the lack of dollor bills. I mean queue dstv-rsa and their neverending loyalists.

Finally, both attempts were denied for my refund adventures; testing the system and well boredom. Steam support isn't so bad when you are not dealing with their bot-system, the one support agent I dealt with was actually quite polite and trying to do something rather than nothing.
The hackers epidemic is very bad. I don't know about a multiplayer game which isn't infested with hackers, and without anti-cheats, it will be armageddon. There is no middle ground here. Remove the anti-cheat and people will complain, allow hackers to roam free and people will complain even more.

If anti-cheats are limited to only run in the process of a game's executable, likewise with DRM, there shouldn't really be an issue to bitch about. If it causes performance issues, then yes, you should have a right to refund as it is having a negative impact on your expected user experience.

In Doom's case, perhaps they can split the multiplayer from the singleplayer. Two separate games, it has been done many times before. I guess people will still complain should this happen to be the remedy.

If people wish to advocate against something, do have merit, than following the herd who follows a misguided opinion. The majority of those taking it to their media platforms monetize their 'plight' in any case.

In the end, the cheater's community would love Denuvo Anti-Cheat to be removed.

Talking about this. In The Crew 2 by Ubisoft you can only really unlock premium things in online multiplayer, hence you need to beat the leaderboards. They have a downturned BattleEye after people complained about it, and now it is near impossible to beat the exploiters. Complain, complain, complain...

Likewise, with MK11, not even the players running bot fighters 24/7 on spam can beat the exploiters on the ladders. The devs can't do much because if they harden the anti-cheat people will complain if they take it away from people they will complain, so they just leave it in the middle where people still continues to complain.

Can't beat them, join them.

If there weren't cheaters there wouldn't have been anti-cheats. If everyone could have been trusted there wouldn't have been lawyers.

Bethesda has ultimately complicated their single-player game with online multiplayer, this after they had issues with online multiplayer in Doom 2016 and affirmed that they won't focus on multiplayer. Just remove the online multiplayer component then, and everyone should be happy. Only that seconds later people will complain about the game mode being removed. Yes, Bethesda should probably give the option to install the online component with the anti-cheat than to force it onto the single-player base - this is what I would recommend under the circumstances.

See where I am going with this. Rather beware those Chinese made anti-cheats and be happy with those abiding by European privacy regulations. If those under Euro law do breach your privacy, they are going to have a lengthy single-player experience with litigation which would preferably be avoided.

Anyways.
 

Nemoneiros

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I see I got a message from steam for a post I made about a week ago in doom eternal. Either someone's stalking my posts or they/beth are scrutinizing for a ban :unsure:
/blames two refund requests :ROFL:

Onto other matters. I not too clued up on this, but how would these hacks normally run against the game? like a process debugger or disassembler?
 

Fulcrum29

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So DAC is getting removed after all (pressure? bad reviews? refund requests?)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/gnjlo7
Yes, but this is important,

Despite our best intentions, feedback from players has made it clear that we must re-evaluate our approach to anti-cheat integration. With that, we will be removing the anti-cheat technology from the game in our next PC update. As we examine any future of anti-cheat in DOOM Eternal, at a minimum we must consider giving campaign-only players the ability to play without anti-cheat software installed, as well as ensure the overall timing of any anti-cheat integration better aligns with player expectations around clear initiatives – like ranked or competitive play – where demand for anti-cheat is far greater.
I guess they are going to do it, split single player from multiplayer. If they have ranked or competitive play for multiplayer they will have to have anti-cheat, otherwise it should be full on casual with cheaters amidst.

I see the Angry Joe Show also complained about this anti-cheat, right after they complained about cheaters in Valorant. Then they went on that anti-cheats shouldn't be kernel level etc. but anti-cheat functions like anti-virus. It looks for known definitions and if a player is reported the packets of the player is inspected, if any out of place code is discovered it will be archived for further discovery and analysis. It is a service.

If id decides to replace DAV with EAC or Punkbuster for example it will be the exact same level of cheat detection with different approaches.

You should see the CoD Warzone Reddit threads, the anti-cheat is now so tuned up that cheaters and cheat devs has raised their voices. Funny to see.

I guess the freedom of cheat should be welcomed.
 

Nemoneiros

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I see the Angry Joe Show also complained about this anti-cheat, right after they complained about cheaters in Valorant. Then they went on that anti-cheats shouldn't be kernel level etc. but anti-cheat functions like anti-virus. It looks for known definitions and if a player is reported the packets of the player is inspected, if any out of place code is discovered it will be archived for further discovery and analysis. It is a service.

If id decides to replace DAV with EAC or Punkbuster for example it will be the exact same level of cheat detection with different approaches.

You should see the CoD Warzone Reddit threads, the anti-cheat is now so tuned up that cheaters and cheat devs has raised their voices. Funny to see.

I guess the freedom of cheat should be welcomed.
Sadly you can't just isolate the app in its own jail (think bsd), that is virtualized like sandbox environment and be done with it. At ring-0 everyone would still have access to all the jails, right? Even so, how would the app access the other parts of the system? If a cheat has to attach like a debugger/hook, then the anti cheat also needs the same level of access and treatment. However, why not just then access the system encrypted and then access the results through decryption and integrity check? I guess this already been done and adds to the overhead.

There was however no reason to just slap that onto the single-player and then treat us like ****; steam and Bethesda/Id Software.
 

Fulcrum29

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Sadly you can't just isolate the app in its own jail (think bsd), that is virtualized like sandbox environment and be done with it. At ring-0 everyone would still have access to all the jails, right? Even so, how would the app access the other parts of the system? If a cheat has to attach like a debugger/hook, then the anti cheat also needs the same level of access and treatment. However, why not just then access the system encrypted and then access the results through decryption and integrity check? I guess this already been done and adds to the overhead.

There was however no reason to just slap that onto the single-player and then treat us like ****; steam and Bethesda/Id Software.
In my view, anti-cheats don't belong in singleplayer experiences. Having an online game comes with a cost, it is a service title and it needs to be maintained 24/7.

Valve, back in the day, put anti-cheat on the radar. We all know VAC, and they have twice been intrusive. Once at the beginning somewhere and people didn't like their system scanned as an AV does, hence it was limited to the Steam directory, and then this happened,


Gabe Newell addresses concern over Valve Anti-Cheat system
"Do we care what porn sites you visit? Oh, dear god, no. My brain just melted."

Gabe Newell has taken the unusual step of addressing concern over VAC - Valve's anti-cheat system.

Newell took to Reddit after a thread on the Counter-Strike: Global Offensive sub-Reddit claimed VAC had recently changed the way it worked so that it read all the domains players visited and sent the information back to Valve's servers hashed.

In short, players were concerned Valve was spying on Steam users' internet use.
now Valve has a loyal player base, everyone loves Steam, including I, and most suck on Gabe's dick (which I don't), so this story went away as quickly as it started. That is extremely intrusive over and beyond what is happening on your system. VAC is still a resource watchdog, but it doesn't do deep scans and process inspections external to the Steam ecosystem. Their solution was simply to support VAC with AI assistance hence they created VACnet which is machine learning. They mostly leverage CSGO, where user reports and Overwatch are being inputted into VACnet to support it in reporting players which still requires VAC to do its thing. It is going to take time to develop this, and Valve will surely want to make this a selling point with Steamworks to encourage other developers and publishers to leverage their anti-cheat, again since most have departed with it. At the moment, VAC is probably the worst anti-cheat on the market and there are users who wish it to be more intrusive.

Most anti-cheats on the market, and all the good ones, are all intrusive. It is how it is, but I never even knew about DAC until this debacle started.

CoD now requires people to authenticate with their cell numbers, and many people don't like this either, but it seems to be working. This is in addition to anti-cheat. Valve also did this with CSGO, which they dubbed Prime, but their matchmaking was broken in any case so, in my opinion, it didn't work with CSGO.

There are expensive hack subscriptions out there, many which do packet manipulation. Your 'non-intrusive' hacks cannot address these exploits.

Devs will never be able to beat hacks. Cloud gaming is probably the only solution, but people will move over to legal hacks like with XIM, Titan, ChronusMax or use them in a combination to manipulate the input mode with scripts running to improve aim, etc.
 

Nemoneiros

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In my view, anti-cheats don't belong in singleplayer experiences. Having an online game comes with a cost, it is a service title and it needs to be maintained 24/7.

Valve, back in the day, put anti-cheat on the radar. We all know VAC, and they have twice been intrusive. Once at the beginning somewhere and people didn't like their system scanned as an AV does, hence it was limited to the Steam directory, and then this happened,




now Valve has a loyal player base, everyone loves Steam, including I, and most suck on Gabe's dick (which I don't), so this story went away as quickly as it started. That is extremely intrusive over and beyond what is happening on your system. VAC is still a resource watchdog, but it doesn't do deep scans and process inspections external to the Steam ecosystem. Their solution was simply to support VAC with AI assistance hence they created VACnet which is machine learning. They mostly leverage CSGO, where user reports and Overwatch are being inputted into VACnet to support it in reporting players which still requires VAC to do its thing. It is going to take time to develop this, and Valve will surely want to make this a selling point with Steamworks to encourage other developers and publishers to leverage their anti-cheat, again since most have departed with it. At the moment, VAC is probably the worst anti-cheat on the market and there are users who wish it to be more intrusive.

Most anti-cheats on the market, and all the good ones, are all intrusive. It is how it is, but I never even knew about DAC until this debacle started.

CoD now requires people to authenticate with their cell numbers, and many people don't like this either, but it seems to be working. This is in addition to anti-cheat. Valve also did this with CSGO, which they dubbed Prime, but their matchmaking was broken in any case so, in my opinion, it didn't work with CSGO.

There are expensive hack subscriptions out there, many which do packet manipulation. Your 'non-intrusive' hacks cannot address these exploits.

Devs will never be able to beat hacks. Cloud gaming is probably the only solution, but people will move over to legal hacks like with XIM, Titan, ChronusMax or use them in a combination to manipulate the input mode with scripts running to improve aim, etc.
I wonder if that scope includes tools like fiddler, icepick and/or wireshark. Still you can easily have integrity checks to your chatter unless the attacker also has your keys and signage, or just throw that within a secure tunnel to your severs?
 
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