DSTV PVR - downloading to PC

Syndyre said:
What are the current problems?
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There are an abundance of issues with the DSTV PVR at present, below are some of the bugs that where discussed on the DSTV forum in December:If you take a look at the "PVR Wishlist" you can see many of the features that are yet to be implemented. Some of which are as follows:
  • To ability to adjust the scheduled recording start and end times according to the latest EPG information if the EPG information changes after a recording has been set.

  • The ability to set recurring recordings from the electronic programme guide (EPG). i.e. record all episodes of CSI by selecting one episode and then selecting to record the series through a simple mechanism.

  • The ability to search for events based on keywords, actors, directors and populate a ‘auto recommend favourites’ list/s from which the viewer can choose to set recordings.

  • The ability to recording parts of the buffer and/or appending the part of currently live event that is in buffer (to an inpulse record).

  • The ability to suggest alternative record times of repeats when there is a recording conflict, and auto resolve if EPG changes cause a conflict.

  • Add more information to the recordings, for example the time and date that it was recorded.

  • Have a 30 day guide available on the hard drive so that recordings can be set further in the future
The PVR was released 14 months ago, aside from a couple of major bug fixes, fixing the fast forward speeds and increasing the safety net setting, the only new feature added to the PVR is 5.1 surround sound support (which incidentally is another bug as you can't watch a surround sound show live).
 
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@Tivo - while the Tivo is a great machine, I will only support it once it is fully supported and available in South Africa (which will probably be never).

As for the surround sound, I had no problems watching 'Mr & Mrs Smith' live last Sunday evening on MM1 - I think that has been fixed?
 
adsl3g said:
@Tivo - while the Tivo is a great machine, I will only support it once it is fully supported and available in South Africa (which will probably be never).
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To each his own, it's just nice to have choices. TiVo is unlikely to ever officially launch in South Africa, well at least not with any of it's current devices.
 
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@ tivoza how many people are using tivos in sa ? last count i saw was 160 odd
 
telkomsuig said:
@ tivoza how many people are using tivos in sa ? last count i saw was 160 odd
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There are just over 130 users at present, 5 of whom have their TiVo's recording from a PVR :p
 
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PVR technology is very complex and DSTV hasn't got it right yet. I don't think anyone has looked at the firmware on the decoders yet to see what format the streams are in.

I know the DSD990s (and below) have a very limited memory, which is why the TV Guide is so slow.

I agree with the comment about the programmes being encrypted becauseI believe DSTV followed the UK model - Sky - which is encrypted on the HDD.

I wouldn't buy a DSTV PVR. Rather look at the 3rd party Topfield, Humax or Dreambox. A PC Sat Card like Skystar 1 or 2 would do very nicely for recording. You may need to use a Series 4/3/2 smartcard though.
 
Skeptik said:
I don't think anyone has looked at the firmware on the decoders yet to see what format the streams are in.
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DSTV encrypts their content using Triple DES before it's broadcast. The PVR saves the RAW encrypted feed (extracted from the transport stream), it's only when a recording is selected for playback that it is decrypted hence the reason the PVR cannot play recordings when the smart card is not inserted.
 
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adsl3g said:
@Tivo - while the Tivo is a great machine, I will only support it once it is fully supported and available in South Africa (which will probably be never).
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But it is fully supported, Thanks TivoZA!!
:-)
 
TivoZA said:
DSTV encrypts their content using Triple DES before it's broadcast. The PVR saves the RAW encrypted feed (extracted from the transport stream), it's only when a recording is selected for playback that it is decrypted hence the reason the PVR cannot play recordings when the smart card is not inserted.
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*BZZZZZZZZZZZZZ* Wrong! (sorry)

The Stream Data is encrypted using the CSA formua. (content scrambling) its a DVB specification. One of the data streams is for decrypt management and that data goes to the smartcard. The Data is sent to the smartcard and the card returns the decrypt keys used by the CSA algorithm (there are 2x 8byte keys(odd and even keys)... only 6 bytes are used per key are used tho- the other 2 bytes are derived) - (The key has a lifespan of about 30 seconds, so cracking it is a waste of time.)

Once Decrypted on the PVR, the CPU has a hardware encryption engine on the IDE channel. The content is is 3DES scrambled before its written to the hard disk. (The IDE keys are kept on the hard disk in a secure area..)

The PVR can playback recorded content without a smartcard *IF* they wanted to allow it. There is absolutely no reason the card is needed... the UEC decoders are the *ONLY* PVRs I have ever seen that dont allow playback without card.
 
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RichardP said:
*BZZZZZZZZZZZZZ* Wrong! (sorry)
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It may very well be wrong, the above methods are as were explained on the DSTV forum by Multichoice staff. It's was given as one of the reasons as to why the smart card was required for playback.

EDIT: Thinking back to my original discussion with DSTV about this, I recall I was of the same impression as you (i.e. that the 3DES encoding only took place after the original feed had been decoded). The question I had posed to DSTV was would the encoding be a limiting factor with regards to recording two or three shows simultaneously (i.e. is the chip able to 3DES encode more then one stream at a time), their response was (as above) that the 3DES encoding took place before it was broadcast. If the PVR encoding works as you say then it may not actually be possible for the PVR to record and encode more then one show at a time (the two buffered feeds don't require encoding so it's not just a simple process of recording the extra feeds to disk).
 
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TivoZA said:
It may very well be wrong, the above methods are as were explained on the DSTV forum by Multichoice staff. It's was given as one of the reasons as to why the smart card was required for playback.
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Then I think DSTV staff need to go on a course on HOW DSTV works. :-P Requiring the card for playback is purely a buisness decision and was written in to the decoders firmware.

I have been developing PVR decoders for european and american markets for the last 5 years. The decoders I have helped develop even work with dstv using the irdeto CAM.

The NON DSTV pvr's are completely different. Even got PVR's with ethernet, firewire,USB ports on them. (Please dont confuse PVR and Dualview)
Its quite fun developing for satellite toys actually :-) Especially the ones that are IP enabled.
 
If it helps, the Dreambox records DSTV very well in MPEG2 .TS (transport stream) files. These digital recordings are identical to the broadcast. They can be ported to a PC and played with VLC or converted to VOBS & put on a DVD for normal players. How then does the DES affect things?

Oh and did I mention that you don't need an IrdetoII cam either ...;)

[SKY PVRs also need the smartcard to replay the content]
Ideally we need someone clever to write a patch for the PVRs ...
 
RichardP said:
Requiring the card for playback is purely a buisness decision and was written in to the decoders firmware.
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As much as what you say is 100% correct with regards to most decoders it's important to keep in mind that DSTV prefer to make use of proprietary "techniques" rather than adopt industry standards.

With regards to the smart cards, at present playback is not possible without a smartcard inserted but any PVR smart card will do. DSTV are actually wanting to restrict this further so that playback will only be possible when the smart card that was inserted during the recording of the show is the smart card that is required to be inserted for the playback of the recording.

RichardP said:
I have been developing PVR decoders for european and american markets for the last 5 years. The decoders I have helped develop even work with dstv using the irdeto CAM.
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Although many of the decoders with Irdeto and/or CAM support do work with DSTV at present (e.g. Dreambox, Manahatten, DVB-S cards), DSTV are planning on implementing smartcard marriage. By doing this each smart card will only work with one decoder and there is little chance that DSTV will authorise it to be used with any 3rd party devices.

RichardP said:
The NON DSTV pvr's are completely different. Even got PVR's with ethernet, firewire,USB ports on them. (Please dont confuse PVR and Dualview)
Its quite fun developing for satellite toys actually :-) Especially the ones that are IP enabled.
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DSTV have finally seen the light with regards to implementing a primary decoder and then allowing extenders to stream the content from the primary decoder. That said they seem to think that they are in someway doing something new and they are planning on patenting their solution so again don't expect it to work in the same manner as what you are working with in Europe and the US.
 
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I doubt whether Multichoice will get away with this marriage thing.

Already competitors are just about ready to enter the market and have designs on utilising the DSTV Irdeto boxes with their own smartcards. I can't imagine the public having to buy a NEW box (with the same specs) just to view other channels. Neither can I see DSTV issuing new cards just to fascilitate spoiling the watching of DSTV on other boxes or on a PC.

It's hardly a threat to them anyway. Irdeto II is not cracked and everybody pays through the nose for what is quite a weak programme lineup.

The boxes belong to us, so there would be a strong argument for denying them this liberty.
 
Skeptik said:
I doubt whether Multichoice will get away with this marriage thing.
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It's common practice among many of the US and Canadian broadcasters. If it's a requirement imposed on them by the content producers, they have little choice but to comply.

Skeptik said:
Already competitors are just about ready to enter the market and have designs on utilising the DSTV Irdeto boxes with their own smartcards. I can't imagine the public having to buy a NEW box (with the same specs) just to view other channels. Neither can I see DSTV issuing new cards just to fascilitate spoiling the watching of DSTV on other boxes or on a PC.
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Most of the new PayTV applicants will be broadcasting using a different encoding format as well as a different encryption method. The DSTV decoders (all of them) are only capable of handling MPEG-2 encoding, some of the new broadcasters are planning on using MPEG-4 due to the reduced bandwidth requirements amongst other benefits. As far the the encryption is concerned, the DSTV decoders are only able to decode Irdeto content. SABC already makes use of Nagravision and MiDigital have stated that they plan on using Videoguard NDS encryption so neither of these will be supported by the DSTV decoders.

It's also worth noting that the PVR does not support high band frequencies and even if the new broadcasters where using MPEG-2 encoding and Irdeto encryption, the PVR may still not be able to receive them as is already the case with the PVR not being able to receive BotswanaTV as well as most other free-to-air channels.

Added to this is the issue that the PAS-7/10 transponders appear to be quite full (or such is the excuse about the limited bandwidth being the cause of the poor picture quality), this may require that the new broadcasters make use of alternate satellites which may require repositioning of your existing satellite dish or additional dish's if you wish to subscribe to multiple broadcasters.
 
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TivoZA said:
As much as what you say is 100% correct with regards to most decoders it's important to keep in mind that DSTV prefer to make use of proprietary "techniques" rather than adopt industry standards.
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Correct, but proprietry means 'Control' and 'Non-Standard'

TivoZA said:
With regards to the smart cards, at present playback is not possible without a smartcard inserted but any PVR smart card will do. DSTV are actually wanting to restrict this further so that playback will only be possible when the smart card that was inserted during the recording of the show is the smart card that is required to
be inserted for the playback of the recording.
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as the above line says... and its a requirement from MPAA.

TivoZA said:
Although many of the decoders with Irdeto and/or CAM support do work with DSTV at present (e.g. Dreambox, Manahatten, DVB-S cards), DSTV are planning on implementing
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The cards were married to the decoders in Australia years ago, there is nothing new about that. Also - the decoder is married to the card... not the other way round... AND .. the dreambox ITgate etc etc still work perfectly in those countries.
BUT - it was compromised shortly after it was implemented in Australia and other countries. (I cant talk too much about it)

TivoZA said:
smartcard marriage. By doing this each smart card will only work with one decoder and there is little chance that DSTV will authorise it to be used with any 3rd party devices.
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Quite possible, but I think DSTV can be taken on Antitrust laws then. Its not fair play - but then - DSTV have their own laws. DSTV dont own the scrambler - its IRDETO and they have to support the official Irdeto CI modules. Of Course DSTV wants you think that its 1 - card 1 decoder.. its in their books to brainwash the public to fit their ideas.... its called Marketing..

TivoZA said:
DSTV have finally seen the light with regards to implementing a primary decoder and then allowing extenders to stream the content from the primary decoder. That said they seem to think that they are in someway doing something new and they are planning on patenting their solution so again don't expect it to work in the same manner as what you are working with in Europe and the US.
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LOL! Of course they think its new... just like they think that DVB-H is new, and they are the first with HDTV and they were the first PVR that has a hard disk in it. The Engineers at UEC are very good enginneers, but as allways - DSTV wants MORE CASH for absolutely nothing.
 
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RichardP said:
Correct, but proprietry means 'Control' and 'Non-Standard'
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That's what I'm saying :p

RichardP said:
DSTV dont own the scrambler - its IRDETO and they have to support the official Irdeto CI modules.
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Um, actually they do. Both DSTV and Irdeto are owned by Naspers.

RichardP said:
Of Course DSTV wants you think that its 1 - card 1 decoder.. its in their books to brainwash the public to fit their ideas.... its called Marketing..
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Well I know this is still an issue in Canada, it may have been cracked elsewhere but cracking it is only an option for the very few.
 
TivoZA said:
That's what I'm saying :p
Well I know this is still an issue in Canada, it may have been cracked elsewhere but cracking it is only an option for the very few.
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Not to get in to details... but I think your assumption about Canada is incorrect. The main ones in use are Dish and Bev. both those use Nagravision :D What network in Canada is using irdeto?
 
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