E-tags cannot be cloned? Really?

alloytoo said:
You have an idea here.

Have a scanner which records the etags of all the vehicles travelling near you.
Spam the gantry reader as you pass through.
The spam will include vehicles which have already passed through, and which have yet to pass through.

Raise enough anomolies to call the whole system into disrepute.
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:)
 
Mila said:
Since it beeps. How long before you have to replace it?
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3 years when the non replaceable battery goes flat.

I am hacking the system. Some of you have PM'ed me already... not saying anything until I've got my legal ducks in a row.
 
No one has mentioned the line in the newest number plates... wonder what role that plays in the system?
 
Bern said:
I would go further for additional checks like vehicle colour, shape, make, model - also some logic around simultaneous reads that would be physically impossible along with improbable reads (like a car going from Pretoria to JB, then suddenly on the same day from Centurion to JB after already logging a normal trip). At least then you would need to clone the tag and numberplate, you would need to use it on the same type of car in the same colour and you would need to manage your routes carefully to use the clone. Cost and complexity of the illegal route starts getting too high then.
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You left out the driver's iris scan
 
Bern said:
I would go further for additional checks like vehicle colour, shape, make, model - also some logic around simultaneous reads that would be physically impossible along with improbable reads (like a car going from Pretoria to JB, then suddenly on the same day from Centurion to JB after already logging a normal trip). At least then you would need to clone the tag and numberplate, you would need to use it on the same type of car in the same colour and you would need to manage your routes carefully to use the clone. Cost and complexity of the illegal route starts getting too high then.
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It will probably contain more information about the vehicle than just the number plate and registered owner but it won't check against that when all it has to do is just compute a hash and see if it matches to the one sent out by the tag.
 
UnUnOctium said:
It will probably contain more information about the vehicle than just the number plate and registered owner but it won't check against that when all it has to do is just compute a hash and see if it matches to the one sent out by the tag.
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Which is what makes all the SANRAL/gov/"economists" so funny - the public can see the technology is not being used in a way to be most fair to the users. Rather, the aim seems to be to debit your account which is financially sound planning for those who receive the money.

If you have an etag and it doesn't get picked up by the gantry you are billed as far as I understand. This means that the whole point of the etag is void (people only need to clone your numberplate) unless some intelligence is added to figure out if it is a likely normal trip for you or not. Now you step in to the tracking people trap and that has a whole bunch of other issues again. Really I don't think anyone went through all the potential legal and business pitfalls of this system which would not be an issue if they did not try to implement it on the primary arteries of Gauteng.
 
Am I understanding this ?

There is no point in buying an e-tag then hacking it to make it unreadable.

So I presume the idea is to get the tag to send info to the gantry - but with the wrong details ?
 
we should do a numberplate swop. get a group of 10 people and every other day pass on your number plate to the nex guy. When The letter comes in the post you ask for photies...and deny it was you :D
 
Bern said:
If you have an etag and it doesn't get picked up by the gantry you are billed as far as I understand. This means that the whole point of the etag is void (people only need to clone your numberplate) unless some intelligence is added to figure out if it is a likely normal trip for you or not.
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I sent an email to Sanral [email protected] with roughly that question (how would they prevent me being charged for another car with my plates) 3 weeks ago, got a confirmation pdf with a 7 day response guarantee..... nothing happened, sent email again enquiring and providing my ref no, again got pdf with 7 day response promise....... and yes, nothing.....
They either don't answer ANY emails, or just ignore the difficult questions
 
Here's info from the public domain:

the Kapsch PREMID Tag has:

- memory that can be read/written by the gantry
- the tone frequency of the speaker can be changed OTA
- Kapsch claim the tag has a "fast 3DES crypto embedded in the processor". I have my doubts for various technical reasons too long to explain here
- The communication protocol is an ISO/IEC standard. I am procuring the documents from the SABS Webstore.
- The tag has a limited life, 3 years before the non-replaceable battery goes flat.
 
Koosi said:
Here's info from the public domain:

the Kapsch PREMID Tag has:

- memory that can be read/written by the gantry
- the tone frequency of the speaker can be changed OTA
- Kapsch claim the tag has a "fast 3DES crypto embedded in the processor". I have my doubts for various technical reasons too long to explain here
- The communication protocol is an ISO/IEC standard. I am procuring the documents from the SABS Webstore.
- The tag has a limited life, 3 years before the non-replaceable battery goes flat.
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keep digging Koosi - great stuff!

and after 3 years, you will have to buy a new tag at R150 - let's rather crush the system NOW!
 
Bundu said:
I sent an email to Sanral [email protected] with roughly that question (how would they prevent me being charged for another car with my plates) 3 weeks ago, got a confirmation pdf with a 7 day response guarantee..... nothing happened, sent email again enquiring and providing my ref no, again got pdf with 7 day response promise....... and yes, nothing.....
They either don't answer ANY emails, or just ignore the difficult questions
Click to expand...


Wait, so with all the staff who have NOTHING to do right now they can't reply to an email within their own SLA?? Wow, great incentive to get an etag...
 
Bern said:
Wait, so with all the staff who have NOTHING to do right now they can't reply to an email within their own SLA?? Wow, great incentive to get an etag...
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or maybe the answer is embarrassing to them....
 
Koosi said:
Here's info from the public domain:

the Kapsch PREMID Tag has:

- memory that can be read/written by the gantry
- the tone frequency of the speaker can be changed OTA
- Kapsch claim the tag has a "fast 3DES crypto embedded in the processor". I have my doubts for various technical reasons too long to explain here
- The communication protocol is an ISO/IEC standard. I am procuring the documents from the SABS Webstore.
- The tag has a limited life, 3 years before the non-replaceable battery goes flat.
Click to expand...

3DES processor is very real, the Mifare systems also had one... my comment would be 'ONLY 3DES! .. why not just leave the door unlocked'. The question is the implementation of the the Tag. Is there Serial number read from the tag and then matched in a post-processing system on the backend daily (I would expect batch processing at a server) I dont believe the RAM on the e-tag will be updated in any way as it adds a large amount of complexity in an unreliable/untrusted data-communications link. It might just bump numbers that wont be admissable in a court of law.

I would like to know how billing would take place if the eTag was not readable (due to network congestion or some other reason) Will SANRAL send you the bill for a Non eTag rate or will it just be allocated to your account as-if you had a tag?
 
Ricard said:
I would like to know how billing would take place if the eTag was not readable (due to network congestion or some other reason) Will SANRAL send you the bill for a Non eTag rate or will it just be allocated to your account as-if you had a tag?
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good question, never thought about that situation - similar to a biker that forgets his tag at home....

Why don't you email Sanral and ask them [email protected]
I bet you will get a ref no and target date, but sadly never an answer - they must be too busy not selling e-tags
 
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