Europeans support a pre-emptive strike

[Natas]

Plus they have to deal with the propagandists. That is where the extremists have no equal .

Not quite sure what you mean here but are you referring to the US's propaganda campaign where for weeks before they invaded they air dropped tons of pamphlets over Iraq with American propaganda plastered all over them? Propaganda is a very important part of any war and BOTH sides employ it..it is quite usefull. The best example of war time propaganda is CNN!!

 

[Darth Garth]

The fact is they have the capability to instantly destroy the whole of Lebanon if they wanted to, it would've been much easier on their part to just carpet bomb most of Southern Lebanon, except unlike their enemies they do actually try and avoid civilian casualties, unlike Hamas etc. who try to maximise them.

That is the difference between a nation state and a ragtag bunch of militia ... the rules and conduct applies differently.

 

[w1z4rd]

How ???.
The last time they invaded Lebanon they kicked the PLO's butt all the way to Tunisia but Hizbollah on the other hand fought them to a stalemate.

The Lebanese government and people after all the religious bullsh!t fought over for years had had enough. However, Hezbollah still controlled the south of the country and the fledgling Lebanese army was not strong enough to stop the hezbollah terrorist groups. In fact before Israel went into southern Lebanon the Lebanese army had not been into that area for 20 years.

I was speaking to a couple of financial peeps and they informed me that the Lebanese government and economy was on a major rebound, but problems in the south kept the country from becoming fully stable.

Then without warning, Israel who has put up with the rocket attacks and such coming from south Lebanon for years... all of a sudden change their mind and attack inland.

Notice the lack of proper condemnation from both the Lebanese governments and world governments... something was up. They had a plan... and it worked.

Israel went in and kicked the poo out of Hezbollah to make them weak enough to allow Lebanese soldiers (who were welcomed by the locals with flowers and stuff) back into the area and shortly after that UN forces.

Now look at the results:

- Hezbollah lost its control on the area
- Lebanese government got control of the area
- Israel got a safer border

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out that there was an agreement somewhere there.

 

[Syndyre]

That is the difference between a nation state and a ragtag bunch of militia ... the rules and conduct applies differently.

The terrorist's actions aren't any more justified because they're not a nation state though.

 

[Alan]

The best example of war time propaganda is CNN!!

*sigh*

Have you ever even watched CNN?

 

[Natas]

I think South Africans should sort out how they and their country responds to Zimbabwe before moaning about how the worlds largest super power handles the situation.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. IMO America invading Zimababwe would be the worst thing for our region. But aswer me this, how do you propose we get to our President, put him under and then actually give him that ball transplant he so badly needs?

As for your other statements: Please confirm who produced the intelligence that Iran wants to produce weapons grade uranium? Are these the same people that said there were WMD's in Iraq?

Israel hasn't threatened the complete destruction of anyone, but just because they havent said it doesnt mean they are not thinking it.....how then do you explain what htey are doing to the Palestinians, especialyl with the building of that wall? They just weren't stupid enough to have said anything....The Israelis hate the Palestinians and vice versa...lets please not pretend that anyone it MORE right than the other.....

Iran MAY have threatened the complete destruction of Israel, but if you believe that the US would spend BILLIONS of Dollars just because Iran said something nasty then you're pretty naive....Yes America: World Police is getting involved because Iran is "EVIL" and they therefore need to invade.....and if it just so happens that there are huge oil reserves in the Country they are invading I'm sure thats just a convenient coincidence right?

I would like to see America invade Iran...I REALLY would....CNN is a bit boring at the momment. I just get irritated that America always claims the high ground....I suppose thats just good marketing on their part...

 

[Natas]

*sigh*

Have you ever even watched CNN?

Have you ever watched the CNN we get here and compared it to CNN broadcast in the States? (Just as a start) Like when 911 happened and CNN broadcast footage of Arabic people celebrating....it was later discovered that this was old footage completely unrelated to 911....ahh CNN....a bastion of truth!!

Not quite surewhat you are getting at here, but I hope you're not trying to imply that CNN is an impartial party wihtout direct links to the American government.

 

[Darth Garth]

The terrorist's actions aren't any more justified because they're not a nation state though.

Not justified but that a nation state functions under some sort of restraint in conduct when it comes to taking on a group of insurgents willing to sacrifice everything in order to reach their goal.

Just remember how the Russians dealt with Grozny when they invaded the second time under Putin.

They conveniently declared everybody incl civilians in the city to be "enemy combatants" , banned the press and then let loose with their Graz missiles and artillery until they flattened most of it and then the torture and killing of "terrorist suspects" started.

But then they don't care too much for world opinion anyway.

I don't think the US and Israel would be able to get away with such conduct.

 

[Syndyre]

Israel hasn't threatened the complete destruction of anyone, but just because they havent said it doesnt mean they are not thinking it.....how then do you explain what htey are doing to the Palestinians, especialyl with the building of that wall?

Building a wall implies that they're not thinking/planning about completely destroying them otherwise why would they need the wall.

 

[Darth Garth]

*sigh*
Have you ever even watched CNN?

Fox News ... Hannity & Colmes , O Reilly Factor ... no wonder .

 

[Syndyre]

Not justified but that a nation state functions under some sort of restraint in conduct when it comes to taking on a group of insurgents willing to sacrifice everything in order to reach their goal.

Just remember how the Russians dealt with Grozny when they invaded the second time under Putin.

They conveniently declared everybody incl civilians in the city to be "enemy combatants" , banned the press and then let loose with their Graz missiles and artillery until they flattened most of it and then the torture and killing of "terrorist suspects" started.

But then they don't care too much for world opinion anyway.

I don't think the US and Israel would be able to get away with such conduct.

The Russians don't seem to be too concerned with even their own citizens when dealing with terrorists, just look at Beslan and the Moscow theatre siege.

 

[Alan]

I just get irritated that America always claims the high ground....I suppose thats just good marketing on their part...

*sigh*

Here we go again. Yeah all countries are equally evil. I'm sure in Iran you'd be able to have your slavish devotion to materialism and self satisfaction no different to say in America.

But hey if everybody is bad then you can righteously sit on the fence

Have you ever watched the CNN we get here and compared it to CNN broadcast in the States? Not quite surewhat you are getting at here, but I hope you're not trying to imply that CNN is an impartial party wihtout direct links to the American government.

You didn't answer my question

But I'll answer yours

Yeah I've seen CNN broadcasts out of the States on occasion. I've also been to their website as well as talked to Americans and got their views on CNN.

I'll try another question and see if you'll make the effort to actually answer this time.

Do you think news agencies like CBS, ABS, FOX News, NY Times, Washington Post are all mouth pieces for American propaganda?

 

[Natas]

Building a wall implies that they're not thinking/planning about completely destroying them otherwise why would they need the wall.

Have you even seen what the wall will look like, what path it will follow.... there are many ways to kill your enemy, the least cruel of which is a quick and painless death, a bullet to the temple. A more cruel way to dispense with your enemy is take away everything, make him loose all hope and wish that he was dead. Go an have a look and what the wall will look like. there is a documentary about it....cant remember the name. If you WANT to watch it I can find out for you....

 

[Darth Garth]

Hezbollah lost its control on the area

They are still there right on the border ... rearmed to their pre-conflict levels by the Syrians/Iranians.

Lebanese government got control of the area

Allegedly under the control by the French and the rather weak Lebanese army who is split among sectarian lines ... most of their soldiers are Shia and who does Hizbollah represent again ???.

Also Hizbollah is part of the Lebanese govt.

Israel got a safer border

And their two soldiers are still being held captive ... was that not the trigger for the whole conflict in the first place ???.

 

[w1z4rd]

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. IMO America invading Zimababwe would be the worst thing for our region. But aswer me this, how do you propose we get to our President, put him under and then actually give him that ball transplant he so badly needs?

Educate South Africans

As for your other statements: Please confirm who produced the intelligence that Iran wants to produce weapons grade uranium? Are these the same people that said there were WMD's in Iraq?

Russia. The people building the nuke power facility in Iran.

Israel hasn't threatened the complete destruction of anyone, but just because they havent said it doesnt mean they are not thinking it.....

So now we need to do preemptive strikes on pre-emptive thinking. Unless you have any information that shows Israel`s indications to destroy the people of Israel I would advise such racist comments are thought about more carefully. From Iran you have it right from the horses mouth... you cant compare that reasonably.

how then do you explain what htey are doing to the Palestinians, especialyl with the building of that wall?

First off.. there has never been a country called Palestine. Ever. There was a roman province called Palestine which was based on the Philistine name (it was called such by the Romans to upset the Jews... whom had conquered the Philistines before the Romans crushed them)

Secondly... when Palestine was a part of Jordan how come the people didn't want to be Palestinians before the 6 day war? That aside it has become a good agitate point for Islamic radicals, and a good excuse for Jewish presidents to make a lot of money in back hand deals involving walls.

However, some of the justification behind the wall is fair. Until Palestine can control Palestinians the Israeli`s can put up a wall between them and Israel. The problem comes with silly land grabs of those disputed territories with the wall. I believe Israel should follow the UN resolutions on where the borders lie and keep to them.

They just weren't stupid enough to have said anything....The Israelis hate the Palestinians and vice versa...lets please not pretend that anyone it MORE right than the other.....

I do think both sides are retarded. They are fighting over whos God has the biggest penis and imaginary lines in the ground. However on a more base ideology and morality note I will support Israel for one main reason. I once saw a cartoon that summed it up. In the picture was an Israeli soldier standing in front of a child's pram with a gun. On the other side was a radical hiding behind the pram with a weapon.

Iran MAY have threatened the complete destruction of Israel, but if you believe that the US would spend BILLIONS of Dollars just because Iran said something nasty then you're pretty naive....Yes America: World Police is getting involved because Iran is "EVIL" and they therefore need to invade.....and if it just so happens that there are huge oil reserves in the Country they are invading I'm sure thats just a convenient coincidence right?

I cant support Iran until it is a free country. By free I mean accountability and transparency and control of the people. While Bush and his republican group siffed up the American image big time... look at how with the current change in power in the senate and house ... how all the investigations are coming out about the Bush abuse of power. You wont see that in Iran. In Iran they have successive dictators who rule with a totalitarian style Mugabe democracy.

Israel and the US have a close treaty... in essence a threat to Israel is most often a threat to the US.

Now back to your question "if Iran didnt have oil"... I could counter that with "if Israel was not Jewish" If Iran didnt have oil would the US do anything about it.. most likely not unless they have other reasons. Now if Israel was not Jewish would Iran have threatened their complete destruction?

I would like to see America invade Iran...I REALLY would....CNN is a bit boring at the momment. I just get irritated that America always claims the high ground....I suppose thats just good marketing on their part...

I doubt they would invade. They don't have the man power. I wouldn't think anything beyond surgical air strikes to remove nuke issues or government officials.

 

[Natas]

@ Alan: Its not about sitting on the fence. My point is that America claims the high ground when there is little or none. Peolpe on this thread seem to think that the USA will go into Iran with only altruistic intentions. That they will be there to prevent great tragedy to the world. I am not sitting on the fence....I am firmly on the side of WAR! The only winner in any war is blah blah blah.. One day like to see America vs North Korea or China... I just hate to see mofo's claiming the high ground

As for propaganda and those other news networks and newspapaer you cited...... to a certain degree, the Whitehouse operates control over ALL of these. Its not direct control. But you cerainly do not get ALL the facts. IMO YES they are under the thumb of the whitehouse. I take it that your view is that ALL news networks in the states present an impartial representation of all the facts all the time....

 

[w1z4rd]

They are still there right on the border ... rearmed to their pre-conflict levels by the Syrians/Iranians.

I wonder how those 20k lebanese soilders or 4000 UN soilders on the border feel about your idea.

Allegedly under the control by the French and the rather weak Lebanese army who is split among sectarian lines ... most of their soldiers are Shia and who does Hizbollah represent again ???.

Do you know the size of the christian population in Lebanon? You seem to think its a full Muslim country. You love your assumptions. Two so far today.

For you: It is estimated that about 40% are Christians (mostly Maronites, Greek Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic, Melkite Greek Catholics, Chaldean Catholic), 35% are Shia Muslims, 21% are Sunni Muslims and 5% are Druze.[20] A small minority of Jews live in central Beirut, Byblos, and Bhamdoun. Lebanon has a population of Kurds (also known as Mhallami or Mardinli), estimated to be between 75,000 and 100,000 and considered to be part of the Sunni population.[21]

Also Hizbollah is part of the Lebanese govt.

Yes, but without its army to pressure the Lebanese government anymore.

And their two soldiers are still being held captive ... was that not the trigger for the whole conflict in the first place ???.

Are they been held by the Lebanese government?!? Wow you might wish to tell the intelligence community about that. Or is it perhaps Hezbollah militia that hold them?

 

[Darth Garth]

I wonder how those 20k lebanese soilders or 4000 UN soilders on the border feel about your idea.

And you seem to forget that all institutions in Lebanon are split amongst the various religious sects according to their numbers in order to prevent another civil war (i.e the domination by the Maronite Christians and the Taef Accord).

To confront Hezbollah would mean another civil war.

 

[Natas]

MMMmmmm..it seems that this argument will just go round and round the whole time... IMO there is only one way to solve the problems in that region.... If I was president of the world... I would just drop a huge nuke ( or a couple) on Palestine/Israel and render that whole region uninhabitable for centries to come.... destroy all those holy places they are fighting about.. yada yadah yadah.. and when the region is safe for human habitation again, I would replace any remaining holy sites with the world's biggest malls and theme parks and that.... yeah!!! I mean who doesnt like theme parks huh?!

I learnt this from my mom! ( Hi Mom! ) when my brother and I couldn't share... If we fought over something and couldnt learn to share, my mom would just take it away! Often my brother and I would feel more satisfied by the fact that the other has been denied access to whatever it was than having to share... this must be the nature of the human being.

 

[Alan]

Peolpe on this thread seem to think that the USA will go into Iran with only altruistic intentions. That they will be there to prevent great tragedy to the world.

Okay we agree to disagree

the Whitehouse operates control over ALL of these. Its not direct control. But you cerainly do not get ALL the facts. IMO YES they are under the thumb of the whitehouse.

How then do you explain CBS for instance falsifying "memos" in an attempt to affect negatively the standing president's election campaign Many other agencies spewing incredibly biased and negativity about this administration. Surely the Whitehouse isn't behind it all.

I take it that your view is that ALL news networks in the states present an impartial representation of all the facts all the time....

No but that they aren't all under the thumb of Whitehouse. Some are Pro most aren't, all to varying degrees.


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