Evolution; A challenge.

h0ll0w

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All the books in the world have been written with the couple of characters in our alphabet. I'm not certain I understand this argument I'm afraid.
I suggest you look up the definition of the word "couple".

There is a difference between new/novel and just copying or working off what is already there.

The point is the effects your natural selection terms et al describes, by definition, is unable to add/create new information needed to create radically novel biological structures.

In any case, the article quite clearly shows how new information is added. You haven't addressed this at all.
I could not find anything in your original article on how new information is added to the genome. The paragraph on information in DNA is a joke. The guy doesn't even know what a blueprint is. He does say things which I agree with on information, but basically renders evolution impossible.

Quoting from a YEC site that denies the age of the earth as part of its argument is not adequate 'proof' of anything at all.
So I can ignore anything you quote from talkorigins ?

In any case, the article refers to observed instances of speciation.
And ? You are the ones saying that macro evolution has been observed.

You may be of that school of thought, but that's not an argument in itself is it?
You interpreted that as an argument ?
 

copacetic

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Before we go on, h0ll0w, I just want to get some clarity on something from your website. The reason I said I that that site does not offer evidence, is because it denies the age of the earth.

If this is your stance (IE, you believe in an earth that is less than a couple billion years old), then there are first much more basic facts about the world we need to deal with, before we can even begin discussing evolution.

Obviously if you think the world is 6000 years old, evolution will be by definition an impossibility to you.

So, basic question; How old do you believe the earth is?
 

Techne

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It's pretty clear in the article.
Not really.

And as I have said, I'm not an expert, so I'd prefer to offer more coherent sources than my own.
You don't have to be an expert to discuss it in your own words, you just have to have a basic understanding. I think it will help this thread to be more constructive and conducive to open discussion. As is, discussion appears to be stifled as a result of an article that can at best be described as wishy washy.
 

copacetic

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Not really.

I'm perfectly happy with it.

You don't have to be an expert to discuss it in your own words, you just have to have a basic understanding. I think it will help this thread to be more constructive and conducive to open discussion. As is, discussion appears to be stifled as a result of an article that can at best be described as wishy washy.

Discussion is stifled because of the reasons I gave earlier, not because there's an issue with the article. The article itself has links for most of what it asserts to more in depth sources in any case. So far, the only person who has had objections that at least attempted to address the questions posed, provided links to a YEC website that denied evolution is possible as it requires deep time, which leads me to:

Not really, YECs can understand evolution pretty well.

Let's be clear, I did not say they cannot understand it (although, I've yet to meet a YEC who appears to), I said, as per my quote you were replying to, they will not believe it to be possible (as evolution requires vast amounts of time to explain what we observe in the biological world).
 
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Techne

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I'm perfectly happy with it.
Others may not be. Others may also be put off when you just refer to a poor article and are unable to just describe things in your own words. It gives the impression that you actually hide behind other people's words and that you actually do not know or understands what you are talking about. Describing things in your own words is just a better way to have a discussion IMO.

Discussion is stifled because of the reasons I gave earlier, not because there's an issue with the article. The article itself has links for most of what it asserts to more in depth sources in any case.
Those reasons may or may not be the only reasons. I wouldn't discount the poor article as a reason though.

So far, the only person who has had objections that at least attempted to address the questions posed, provided links to a YEC website that denied evolution is possible as it requires deep time, which leads me to:



Let's be clear, I did not say they cannot understand it (although, I've yet to meet a YEC who appears to), I said, as per my quote you were replying to, they will not believe it to be possible (as evolution requires vast amounts of time to explain what we observe in the biological world).

Evolution can happen in one year (bacterial resistance to antibiotics) or billions of years. The assertion that evolution requires a vast amount of time is just silly. Major evolutionary changes e.g. common ancestor of man and banana to man and banana obviously take a long time, but to understand evolution one does not need to believe in vast periods of time.

I think the more important question is if people accept and understand common ancestry.
 

copacetic

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Others may not be. Others may also be put off when you just refer to a poor article and are unable to just describe things in your own words. It gives the impression that you actually hide behind other people's words and that you actually do not know or understands what you are talking about. Describing things in your own words is just a better way to have a discussion IMO.

So far, you are the only person complaining about the article. Do you also think that the links within the article lead to poor sources? In any case, as I have said many times now, this is all rather besides the point of the thread, which is for people who deny evolution to answer a couple of questions.

Those reasons may or may not be the only reasons. I wouldn't discount the poor article as a reason though.

You are welcome think what you like.

Evolution can happen in one year (bacterial resistance to antibiotics) or billions of years. The assertion that evolution requires a vast amount of time is just silly. Major evolutionary changes e.g. common ancestor of man and banana to man and banana obviously take a long time, but to understand evolution one does not need to believe in vast periods of time.

As I said, to explain the biological world as we see it today, requires vast amounts of time, which is why part of the evidence provided against it, was based on the assertion that the earth is young.

I'm not sure why you are so intent on misrepresenting my position on this. First, you suggest I assert that YEC's cannot understand evolution, which is not what I said. Then when I say quite clearly vast amounts of time are needed to explain the biological world around us that we today observe, you then twist my words to suggest I was saying evolution itself needs vast amount of time in all instances.

I think the more important question is if people accept and understand common ancestry.

Make your own thread then, instead of interfering in mine, which has been quite clear in its objectives from the outset.
 

Techne

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Calm down, relax chap. I don't think I am the only one that thinks the article in the OP can be better. But you miss the point. I think people will be more engaging if you can discuss these matters in your own words instead of just referring to links. Yes, you are not an expert, you keep telling everyone. But this should not discourage you to discuss things in your own words.

Be constructive, I think people will respond more.
 

copacetic

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Calm down, relax chap.

I'm perfectly calm. I don't appreciate being misrepresented is all.

Now, I've made my position clear, it may not please you, but this is how the thread is, I'd only ask that you stop repeating yourself (I've got the message), and either stick to the outline of the first post, or piss off.
 

Ekstasis

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@Copa, you said yourself that you're no expert, yet you copy & past and article which I'm now not sure if you yourself understand it or not.

Then you make a statement like this one
As I said, to explain the biological world as we see it today, requires vast amounts of time,
.....but you expect us to answer your questions....sorry, the article's questions (very scientific I might add) in 30mins (remember you once asked so eloquently for 30mins of our time to answer?)

Personally, I don't have a problem with evolution to a certain degree. This however is not my problem. It's the decorations around evolution that does not gell well. Consider the question below....

I think the more important question is if people accept and understand common ancestry.
 

h0ll0w

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Before we go on, h0ll0w, I just want to get some clarity on something from your website. The reason I said I that that site does not offer evidence, is because it denies the age of the earth.

If this is your stance (IE, you believe in an earth that is less than a couple billion years old), then there are first much more basic facts about the world we need to deal with, before we can even begin discussing evolution.

Obviously if you think the world is 6000 years old, evolution will be by definition an impossibility to you.

So, basic question; How old do you believe the earth is?

First off, I also am of the opinion that your original article is a crock.

How many times more are you gonna ask if I am a YEC ? After all the views I have posted, there is still uncertainty ? Yes I am what you call a YEC, but more importantly I just read and trust the Word of God.

Have you actually read through the site and studied all the claims being made ? I have read through your article and many other similar pieces.

Regardless of the above, as far as I can see this thread is not about origins, but rather about the creative powers of undirected physical evolutionary processes, and a challenge for anybody who does not believe in it to give their reasons. (As if we owe it to you)
 

Ekstasis

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First off, I also am of the opinion that your original article is a crock.

How many times more are you gonna ask if I am a YEC ? After all the views I have posted, there is still uncertainty ? Yes I am what you call a YEC, but more importantly I just read and trust the Word of God.

Have you actually read through the site and studied all the claims being made ? I have read through your article and many other similar pieces.

Regardless of the above, as far as I can see this thread is not about origins, but rather about the creative powers of undirected physical evolutionary processes, and a challenge for anybody who does not believe in it to give their reasons. (As if we owe it to you)
What about the information encoded in DNA? The blueprint...
To believe that a blind,invisible process, by accident put this together , honestly.
Evolution theory is currently the best explanation of the evidence observed - think about this for a second.

Just because it's scientifically the best explanation, they automatically hold it as the truth, excluding any other possibility.
 

Bobbin

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What about the information encoded in DNA? The blueprint...
To believe that a blind,invisible process, by accident put this together , honestly.
Evolution theory is currently the best explanation of the evidence observed - think about this for a second.

Just because it's scientifically the best explanation, they automatically hold it as the truth, excluding any other possibility.

I have no trouble envisioning the blind invisible process you refer to, to me is quite simple in my minds eye to see how one minor change in and amongst a million others could either be accepted or rejected and ultimately form the shape or direction/path of any change really - the possibilities of which are almost limitless only governed by other environmental factors unified or not. Calling it an "accident" is a bit strange though but yeah whatever. This is like calling the effects of water erosion an accident. Or the process of photosynthesis an accident. It just happens, why is it an accident? If I may I think calling it an accident is a biased frame of mind, not claiming I am not biased just saying.

And scientifically what other possibility would you have us compare it with? If there was a better alternative I can assure you scientists would be looking at it. Should we just lay down our tools and give up? Would that make you guys happy?

Intelligent design, maybe. But I can see it without too so either way I don't care. But even inferring intelligent design could still prove evolution in a sense. So in order to disprove evolution either come up with an answer instead of problems or you need to strongly convince us that the wealth of info (and I am certain it is way beyond a shyteload of info) is all BS. How can I not hold it as truth? But I don't worship it either.

Lastly to someone like me, listing and providing a whole entire essay of "problems" with the Theory of Evolution just means there are areas that need discovering or understanding and presents an opportunity for mankind to do so (provided those reasons are not agenda based and false themselves), I don't stand on my head and say aaaaah that must mean it is all nonsense!! I do not want!!. Once again if I may I think you need to realize this frame of mind as well.
 
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copacetic

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@Copa, you said yourself that you're no expert, yet you copy & past and article which I'm now not sure if you yourself understand it or not.

I'm not an expert, I've been quite forthright about that fact.

That you are now accusing me of not understanding the article, is quite frankly absurd. It's not difficult to understand at all, so I'm not sure where this notion comes from. As I said in the first post, it's a simple, well written piece on evolution, which is why I linked to it. Perfectly normal forum behaviour when imparting information to people, I might add.

Then you make a statement like this one

You have completely misunderstood. What I was referring to was the time evolution would take, to produce life on earth as we see it. I was not talking about the time it would take to explain evolution to someone. If you read that quote in context I can't even begin to understand how you managed to extract the meaning from the statement that you did...

.....but you expect us to answer your questions....sorry, the article's questions (very scientific I might add) in 30mins (remember you once asked so eloquently for 30mins of our time to answer?)

See previous statement. Also, I'd like to point out that the questions do not come from the article.

Personally, I don't have a problem with evolution to a certain degree. This however is not my problem. It's the decorations around evolution that does not gell well.

Frankly, I do not believe that you understand evolution at all. Your insistence that there is something that allows micro evolution but inhibits macro evolution is a prime example of this. It betrays a monumental lack of knowledge when it comes to the subject, and hence why it is A) Explained in the article, and B) One of the questions.

Consider the question below....

:confused:

Why?

As I said to Techne, if he considers it more important than what I've asked, he is more than welcome to start his own thread about it. I've been more than clear what the intentions and purposes of this thread are.
 
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copacetic

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First off, I also am of the opinion that your original article is a crock.

Sure, as is your prerogative.

How many times more are you gonna ask if I am a YEC ? After all the views I have posted, there is still uncertainty ? Yes I am what you call a YEC, but more importantly I just read and trust the Word of God.

Pardon me. There are many forumites, I can't keep a running databank in my head on all of you.

Have you actually read through the site and studied all the claims being made ? I have read through your article and many other similar pieces.

I have read bits of the site, and many like it in the past.

Regardless of the above, as far as I can see this thread is not about origins, but rather about the creative powers of undirected physical evolutionary processes, and a challenge for anybody who does not believe in it to give their reasons. (As if we owe it to you)

You owe me nothing at all. I can't compel you to take part one way or the other.
 

copacetic

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What about the information encoded in DNA? The blueprint...

What are you meaning by this exactly?

To believe that a blind,invisible process, by accident put this together , honestly.

Yet again, you say something that shows your monumental lack of understanding.

Please read this:

Why Evolution Isn't Chance

One of the most common arguments against evolution put forward by creationist laypeople goes something like this: "Either evolution is true or creationism is. If evolution is true, then we all got here by random chance. I just can't believe that; there's too much order, complexity and beauty in this world for it all to be the result of chance. Therefore, creationism must be true."

Aside from the false dilemma that arises from assuming evolutionary theory and Judeo-Christian creationism are the only two options, there is a more fundamental error in this argument, one that cuts to the heart of the evolution/creationism debate. Creationists often say they find it inconceivable that pure chance could have produced all the complexity and diversity of life. And evolutionary scientists agree, because evolution says nothing of the kind. This is a crucial fact that must be grasped by anyone hoping to speak on this issue knowledgeably: Evolution is not chance.

To conceive of evolution as nothing more than blind chance and randomness is the most serious conceptual mistake one can make. Evolution does contain a component of chance, but there is far more to the process than that, and it is precisely the existence of the non-chance components that allows evolution to work. The process of evolution is driven by the engine of natural selection, a filter that extracts order out of chaos according to a fixed and non-random set of rules. It is for this reason that many of the most common creationist caricatures of evolution fail. Evolution is not like an explosion in a print shop producing a dictionary, a tornado in a junkyard producing a 747, or DNA in a blender producing a human being, because all of these lack a component of non-random selection.

Described in its simplest terms, evolution is easy to understand. Due to mutation, organisms undergo random changes, some of which are beneficial, while others are not. The organisms with beneficial changes enjoy a competitive advantage, and these changes are passed on throughout the population and become common; those with deleterious changes are at a disadvantage, are less likely to reproduce, and do not pass these changes on, causing them to disappear out of the population. This is natural selection in a nutshell. Within the scientific community, there are debates about topics such as the level at which selection operates or the relative rate of evolutionary change, but the simple principles outlined above lie at the heart of all versions of evolutionary theory.

It is clear to see that natural selection, which is not chance but the opposite of chance, is what makes evolution work. If there were no selection, change in living things would follow a pattern called a "random walk" - sometimes the changes would be beneficial, sometimes not, and the population as a whole would wander back and forth across the fitness "landscape" but, on average, never get anywhere. That would be an example of random change, and it is absolutely correct to say that such a process could never produce all the intricate diversity and marvelous adaptations that living things possess.

Natural selection changes all that, by preferentially preserving the good variations and eliminating the bad ones. It is like a ratchet, allowing a population to move only in one direction - the direction of greater fitness. And the changes that natural selection favors are not random, but are determined by the characteristics of the environment. This is why, for example, both fish and aquatic mammals such as whales and dolphins have the same streamlined body shape - because this is the shape that is most efficient for moving through the water in which they live. This shape has evolved separately in the fish and cetacean lineages, in an example of an evolutionary phenomenon called convergence, precisely because it is the best shape for that environment regardless of what kind of creature has it. If evolution were random, we would not see this kind of predictable pattern.

Like all natural processes, evolution is guided by laws that do not change. If you throw a rock up in the air, its path is not governed by pure chance, but by the law of gravity. It cannot fly off randomly in any direction, but will travel in a parabolic arc and land at a predictable point. If you put a hot object next to a cold one, the transfer of heat is not governed by pure chance, but by the laws of thermodynamics. Heat cannot flow randomly in either direction; it will move consistently from the hotter object to the colder one. And if you set a population of randomly mutating organisms in an environment, their future is not drifting at the whim of chance, but is directed by the law of natural selection. Their evolution will not proceed in just any direction, but only in those that make them better adapted to their surroundings.

Granted, the mutations that provide the raw material for selection to operate on are random, in the sense that they are not predisposed to increase fitness. Beneficial mutations are not preferentially more likely than deleterious ones, and organisms do not "know" how they "need" to mutate in order to survive. It is merely that the ones that do mutate in helpful ways survive better and reproduce more abundantly than those that do not.

This has led to creationists charging that evolution is random in another sense, that it did not require humans to evolve; that is, there is no inevitability to it. And as far as science can determine, this is an accurate statement. Although we can confidently predict that there will be mutations that increase fitness, we cannot predict exactly what mutations they will be or what form they will take. The evolution of Homo sapiens was the result of a long chain of contingencies, and if any event in our evolutionary past had turned out slightly differently, we might exist in a dramatically altered way, or we might not exist at all. There is no scientific evidence that humans' existence was inevitable or that evolution in general has any predetermined goals.

But these things are true only as far as science can determine. If one's personal convictions are such that God intended for humanity to develop all along and guided the course of evolution appropriately, that is not a belief that science can speak to. (That God was working behind the scenes to guide the course of events, despite a lack of any obvious sign of this, is of course a belief common to many religions.) For this reason, the theory of evolution has nothing to say about whether God exists or whether there was a deeper plan to life, though of course, individual scientists are free to take a position on either side of that issue.

But evolution itself is a science, and like all sciences, it tells us only what is, not what should be. It is a description of one particular aspect of reality, and that is all it is. It would be foolish to use it in an attempt to derive a moral code, a purpose for our lives, a meaning to life, or any such thing. Those things do not fall within the realm of science, and science will not give us answers to them; it is up to us as individuals to decide that for ourselves. Some people seek answers to these questions through religion, while others find them through other paths.

When creationists say that one who accepts evolution must believe that life is nothing but the result of random chance, they are abusing the theory. In the scientific sense, this conclusion leaves out the most important part of the entire theory, and in the metaphysical sense, this is a deceptive attempt to derive from the theory an explanation of something it was never meant to explain. Evolution does not tell us that our life is the purposeless result of chance; it does not say anything on the topic at all. Either way, the creationists' conclusion is flatly inaccurate. Their strategy is to tar evolution with offensive-sounding implications and turn people away from it regardless of the evidence, but this fallacious attack will always wither before the truth.

Evolution theory is currently the best explanation of the evidence observed - think about this for a second.

I just want to check, you did read the piece about what a theory means, yes?

Just because it's scientifically the best explanation, they automatically hold it as the truth, excluding any other possibility.

Again, you show a complete misunderstanding of how science works.

In any case, evolution is an observed fact.
 

Ekstasis

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What are you meaning by this exactly?



Yet again, you say something that shows your monumental lack of understanding.

Please read this:





I just want to check, you did read the piece about what a theory means, yes?



Again, you show a complete misunderstanding of how science works.

In any case, evolution is an observed fact.
You're assuming what I understand is wrong. My grasp of the theory is very good I assure you. Evolution is all about chance...I KNOW I KNOW.. natural selection keeps the good traits/parts and discards the bad traits/parts etc.

Now statistically the odds of NS to, by chance (as mentioned in your article), bring forth a complex functioning structure - referring you to the whole Cambrian explosion thingy...

BTW Natural selection is an invisible and unmeasurable concept. So on what basis was it defined?
 

copacetic

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You're assuming what I understand is wrong. My grasp of the theory is very good I assure you. Evolution is all about chance...I KNOW I KNOW.. natural selection keeps the good traits/parts and discards the bad traits/parts etc.

I can only assume about your understanding based on what you say about evolution, which so far forces me to believe you don't have a clue. That you say in one breathe that you have a good understanding, yet insist it's all about chance makes my brain melt.

In any case, the reason for the thread is so you have a chance to defend your assertions about evolution, and show by answering those questions, that your issues with evolution are educated ones. Until you do this, I'm done. The fact that you refuse speaks volumes.

Now statistically the odds of NS to, by chance (as mentioned in your article), bring forth a complex functioning structure - referring you to the whole Cambrian explosion thingy...

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I will happily engage with you about the subject, if you do me the courtesy of responding to the OP. Again, I'm going to make it clear that I do not believe you have the capacity do do so, as you lack knowledge of that which you reject. The more you avoid answering the questions, the more obvious this is.

I'll repeat myself - If you have a good understanding, and your reasons for rejecting evolution are sound, answering those 8 questions will not be difficult at all.

BTW Natural selection is an invisible and unmeasurable concept. So on what basis was it defined?

Ask a dictionary, why don't you?

natural selection

noun
the process by which forms of life having traits that better enable them to adapt to specific environmental pressures, as predators, changes in climate, or competition for food or mates, will tend to survive and reproduce in greater numbers than others of their kind, thus ensuring the perpetuation of those favorable traits in succeeding generations.

It's absurdly simple to grasp and define.
 
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Techne

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I'm perfectly calm. I don't appreciate being misrepresented is all.
I can assure you that the alleged misrepresentation was not done intentionally. it also does not take a rocket scientist to notice that it actually happens quite often that you allege others to misrepresent you. The rational and logical conclusion from this is that people are able to interpret what you are implying or saying in various ways. In others words, people are not wilfully misrepresenting you, they just have different interpretations from what you tried to convey. The error may lie on both sides. If you are more clear and precise, this error might be minimized. To make such a big issue about other people "misrepresenting" you when in fact that just is how they honestly interpret you is disingenuous really.

Now, I've made my position clear, it may not please you, but this is how the thread is, I'd only ask that you stop repeating yourself (I've got the message), and either stick to the outline of the first post, or piss off.
Threads evolve and you are not Hitler :wtf:.
 

Techne

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Ask a dictionary, why don't you?
natural selection

noun
the process by which forms of life having traits that better enable them to adapt to specific environmental pressures, as predators, changes in climate, or competition for food or mates, will tend to survive and reproduce in greater numbers than others of their kind, thus ensuring the perpetuation of those favorable traits in succeeding generations.

It's absurdly simple to grasp and define.
See, this is the problem if you can't explain things in your own words and provide links.

What, in your mind, is the difference between natural selection and evolution?

Let's use the analogy of erosion and ask the following questions for both natural selection and erosion:
1) Is erosion a prescriptive or descriptive term?
2) Is erosion a mechanism?
3) Is erosion a cause or a force?
4) Is erosion a process or an outcome?

Answers

1) Is erosion a prescriptive or descriptive term?
A descriptive term that describes what happens when you have, say for example, water flowing through a river.

2) Is erosion a mechanism?
No, not in any causal manner anyway, at best merely descriptive. The mechanism by which things erode are described via their physical interactions of various physical substances.

3) Is erosion a cause or a force?
Neither. The causes of erosion are to be found in the things that interact with each other.

4) Is erosion a process or an outcome?
An outcome of various efficient causes.

For natural selection:
1) Is natural selection a prescriptive or descriptive term?
A descriptive term that describes what happens when you have, say for example, individuals in a population that have some kind of variation (e.g. genetic) and fitness differences and are able to pass on their traits.

2) Is natural selection a mechanism?
No, not in any causal manner anyway, at best merely descriptive. The mechanism by which things evolve are described via their physical interactions of various physical substances.

3) Is natural selection a cause or a force?
Neither. The causes of evolution are to be found in the things that interact with each other.

4) Is natural selection a process or an outcome?
An outcome of various efficient causes.


Now the next question is, is evolution random?

The common answer is that it is not because natural selection is not random.

Now ask yourself, when things erode, is it random? Can you you give the same answer and say it is not because erosion is not random?
 
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