F1 2012 thread

[killadoob]

So wait when the car is fully loaded the rear is up when it's empty the rear is down. Hmmm i think we better get a rocket scientist up in here for this one.

 

[JerryMungo]

This thread is full of blue bull supporters (Lots of draad sitters supporting the winning team). I support Mclaren, since I started watching in high school. Anyway who supports Force India? Seems they are going to become a much stronger team.

Not sure about Force India given VJ's form of late... He may be forced to tighten his belt next year.

 

[JerryMungo]

1994 is iffy. Michael's car was clearly broken, so who knows how much control he had over it. And Hill tried to dive down at a corner not known for passing.

Iffy alright...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Formula_One_cheating_controversy

The German Grand Prix brought up more controversy leading to further allegations of cheating by Benetton. During a pit stop, the Benetton car of Jos Verstappen was set on fire during refuelling as the fuel nozzle would not enter the car properly.[6] Verstappen suffered minor burns, with four of the Benetton mechanics also burned.[1][6] Intertechnique, the company which manufactures the refuelling equipment for all the teams, were delegated by the governing body to examine the Benetton factory shortly after the German race. After Intertechnique examined the factory, a statement was released by the FIA. In the statement, the FIA said that "the [fuel] valve was slow to close because of the presence of a foreign body" and that a filter designed to eliminate any possible risk of fire had been removed. An estimate by an outside party stated that the without the filter, fuel flowed into the car at 12.5% faster than usual, saving one second per pit stop.[6] Benetton issued a press release shortly after, announcing that they had contacted an "independent company specialising in accident investigation" to give opinions on the refuelling method. They also announced that a copy of the FIA report had been sent to Mariott Harrison, their legal advisers. The FIA announced, as a result of their findings, that Benetton would be summoned to a World Motor Sport Council meeting on October 19.[6] On August 11, three days before the Hungarian Grand Prix, Intertechnique representatives said that no request had been sent from Benetton to remove the filter from the nozzle and that they would never authorise Benetton to remove the nozzle. Benetton made a press release on August 13, stating that there was a fault in the equipment provided by Intertechnique.[1]

Before Schumacher's appeal from his disqualification at the British Grand Prix, he was disqualified from the Belgian Grand Prix as his Benetton had excessive wear of the plank.[1] The FIA allowed the plank to be ten millimetres deep, with an allowance of one millimetre meaning that the plank must be a minimum of nine millimetres to be deemed legal. A majority of the plank on Schumacher's car measured 7.4 millimetres, 1.6 under the legal tolerance.[1][6] Benetton, along with Schumacher, claimed that the plank had excessive wear due to a spin by Schumacher during the race.[3][26][27] Benetton launched an immediate appeal, with a World Motor Sport Council meeting set for September 5.[28] The allegations of Benetton cheating throughout the summer of 1994 led to rumours of Schumacher quitting the team. The team released a statement denying the rumours, stating that Schumacher would complete the season.[29]

 

[thestaggy]

Iffy alright...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Formula_One_cheating_controversy

Ah, the 'ol Benetton were cheats. Note, they were not the only team under investigation. That very same article you quoted has a number of other controversies surrounding other teams.

Ferrari:
Traction control -

During the weekend of the Pacific Grand Prix in April, Ferrari test driver Nicola Larini (who had replaced Jean Alesi for the early part of the season), leaked to the Italian media that he had used traction control during the practice session for the race. Ferrari and Larini later denied the claims to the worldwide press.[3] The "leak" by Larini further raised suspicions about teams using illegal aids to help them in races.

At the San Marino Grand Prix, both Senna and Roland Ratzenberger suffered fatal accidents.[16] After the race weekend, the FIA asked the teams that finished first, second and third in the race (Benetton, Ferrari and McLaren respectively) to provide copies of their engine management system source code to see if an undetected traction control system was stored in there to gain an illegal advantage.[1][17] Ferrari supplied the code immediately, but McLaren and Benetton only handed over the code after the FIA's deadline, for which they were fined $100,000.[1][18]

Larrousse:
Possibly guilty of removing the same filter Benetton did -

The World Motor Sport Council hearing surrounding Benetton and the fuel fire at Hockenheim was brought forward to September 7, with the disqualification of Schumacher at the Belgian Grand Prix also moved to the same day.[28] The night before the hearing, however, the FIA were informed by Larrousse, one of the other teams competing in the championship, that they were informed by Intertechnique in May to remove the filter from the refuelling rig, a point Flavio Briatore made in prior meetings that all but four teams had removed the filter. The FIA in the hearing judged that Benetton had not tried to cheat by removing the filter from the refuelling rig, but the governing body did say that the team removed it without authorisation from Intertechnique to try to gain an advantage.[1] Thus the team were found guilty of the offence, but escaped punishment due to this valid plea in mitigation.

McLaren:
Traction control -

Along with Benetton and Ferrari earlier in the season, McLaren were asked to submit copies of their engine management system source code, which like Benetton, they delivered after the deadline.

Fully automated gearbox shifting -

At the same hearing, the McLaren team was found to be in breach of the technical regulations, specifically over a fully automated gearbox upchange device in the transmission system that was confirmed to have been run in Mika Häkkinen's car during the San Marino Grand Prix.[32] The FIA's discovery of this device occurred when McLaren test driver Philippe Alliot, who had taken a race seat at Larrousse mid-season, commented on the fact that the cars of his new team did not possess such a facility.[33] The system was found to contravene the regulations and was duly banned—as was the potential of an automated downchange facility—but McLaren went unpunished, as the FIA was satisfied that the team believed it to be legal when fitting it to the car under its interpretation of the regulations.[32]

 

[JerryMungo]

Ferrari bid to overturn title

http://www.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/Ferrari-bid-to-overturn-title-20121129

Ferrari is considering a protest that could lead to the result of the 2012 Formula 1 World championship being overturned.

British and Italian media reports said Ferrari was "evaluating footage" to see if it showed Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel making an illegal overtake in Sunday's Brazilian GP in which he finished sixth and took a third consecutive Drivers' championship, beating Ferrari's Fernando Alonso by three points.

CRYPTIC ALONSO

Ferrari is analysing TV footage from Vettel's on-board camera to determine if the 25-year-old overtook Toro Rosso's Jean-Eric Vergne in an illegal area of the track.

Vettel could be dropped to eighth if any protest is upheld and Alonso would be World champion by one point.

Spaniard Alonso tweeted cryptically on Tuesday: "I cannot perform miracles. I make miracles within the rules."

Ferrari, Red Bull and the governing FIA could not immediately be reached for comment but the FIA can decide to investigate even without a Ferrari protest.

Vettel became the youngest triple World champion at Interlagos on Sunday despite being involved in an early collision which left him at the back of the field and facing backwards before he fought his way up to sixth.

Now that's the Ferrari we all love

 

[JerryMungo]

Domenicali: Title was Fernandos

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/m...vettels-f1-title/story-e6frfgb6-1226526403201

SAO PAULO, Brazil - Ferrari soured Sebastian Vettel's triple World title party by insisting that Spaniard Fernando Alonso should have been crowned 2012 champion - an acrimonious, season-finale, parting shot.

Red Bull driver Vettel's sixth in the Brazilian GP on Sunday was enough to make the 25-year-old German the youngest three-times champion in the sport's history by three points but Ferrari insisted that Alonso, second on Sunday, should have been the man celebrating a third career title, pointing to controversial races in Belgium and Japan.

'VERY DISAPPOINTED'

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali said Alonso paid a heavy price for first-lap exits in those countries, shunted out of contention by Lotus drivers Romain Grosjean and Kimi Raikkonen respectively. He was further aggrieved when Vettel, accused of blocking Alonso in qualifying in Japan before going on to win the race, escaped with a reprimand.

"We are proud of Fernando," Domenicali told www.autosport.com, "but we are very disappointed because the one who deserved this championship was really him. It is a shame because, after such a long season that we really fight in all conditions, we raced 18 races and not 20 -- and being second by three points is not a lot.

"Watch the facts. Zero points in two races (Belgium and Japan) so we have done what we have done with 18 races. The others had 20 - and the points were over 20 races. These are facts, not words."

'CAMPAIGN UNDERMINED'

Domenicali remained gracious, however, in his praise of Vettel who was in a collision with Williams' Bruno Senna on the opening lap, spun, and finished at the back of the field before fighting his way back.

"Sometimes there is a sign of destiny where you really can appreciate what is the direction of the wind," he said.

Alonso, second behind McLaren's Jenson Button, also insisted his campaign had been undermined at Spa and Suzuka. "The championship was not lost here," said the still two-times champion. "The championship was lost when (Romain) Grosjean flew over my head (at Spa) or when Vettel surprisingly got only a reprimand after qualifying in Japan."

Vettel refused to become involved in the argument but did allude to his rivals' controversial decision the previous weekend in Texas to change Felipe Massa's Ferrari to allow Alonso to enjoy a grid advantage. "A lot of people tried to play dirty tricks but we did not get distracted by that and kept going our way and all the guys gave a big push right to the end," Vettel told the BBC.

The German struggled with his emotions on Sunday's final lap, completed behind the pace car. "It's difficult to imagine what goes through my head now. I am full of adrenalin - if you poked me now I wouldn't feel it. It was such an incredible race. When you get turned around (the Senna collision) and it becomes like heading the wrong way down the (British motorway) M25 it is not the most comfortable feeling."

PUNCTURE FOR SCHUMI

Vettel is now only the third F1 driver to win three consecutive titles; the others are Argentine Juan Manuel Fangio and childhood idol Michael Schumacher (seventh for Mercedes in his last career race on Sunday).

After 21 years, seven drivers' championship triumphs and 91 victories, 43-year-old Schumacher recovered from an early puncture to score points from his final outing. "I think it's a nice ending," he said. "I'm finishing off and he's (Vettel) clinching his third title. I'm very proud of him."

Pole-starter Lewis Hamilton blasted Nico Hulkenberg after the Force India driver sent the former World champion crashing out of his final race for McLaren. Hulkenburg lost control as he attempted to squeeze into the lead on lap 55 of the 71-lap race and rammed Hamilton's leading McLaren.

"The dude didn't even come and say sorry," said Hamilton.

Said as only a thoroughbred Italian can...
"Sometimes there is a sign of destiny where you really can appreciate what is the direction of the wind," he said."

 

[HapticSimian]

1. If Vettel overtook where & when he shouldn't have then it's nothing but fair to have the results adjusted. I still am not sure what static yellow lights mean, but I do find it odd that there are only official rumblings 3, almost 4 days after the fact. It's never ideal to see titles change hands because of technicalities, but all the drivers (should) compete under the same rules.
2. What is Stefano trying to say?
3. That doesn't match with what Hamilton said in the 'official' post-race interviews, and sounds like sensationalist reporting of remarks made shortly after the incident: "As for today, I don’t remember too much about the accident with Nico (Hulkenberg), but he came to see me after the race, which was nice." (Hamilton).

 

[JerryMungo]

I have no doubt the media is getting as much as they can out of the championship.
Video here:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/m...vettels-f1-title/story-e6frfgb6-1226526403201

Apparently this shows a manual green flag (poor image quality) being waved in the box to his left just before he overtakes which (despite his steering display showing yellow) would override the electronic yellows:

I don't think Ferrari are going to get this one right.
On a side note... when do you think we're going to see 'multi-angle' broadcasts and a PVR to match? I'm thinking... three cameras (at least) broadcasted to three different channels - one primary and two secondary - where the user can change the angle at will while watching their sport...

 

[JerryMungo]

No, kuk luck would have been a retirement due to a racing incident - Alonso had two. Vettel had flipping brilliant luck by comparison and a faster car. That's a fact.

 

[JerryMungo]

A made up, biased, ridiculous fact.

Is it fact or not? It's no use saying it's fact that Vettel had kuk luck, every racer on the grid had kuk luck, some more than others. Let's see... which would you call kuk luck:

Alonso is taken out through no fault of his own on two race opening laps.
Hamilton is taken out by Hulkenberg and has to retire with a broken suspension near the end of the last race.
Vettel is involved in a serious racing incident through no fault of his own at the start but somehow his car is not damaged enough to force retirement and he can still get fast laps in with it.

I see 2x kuk luck and 1x Flipping Good Luck (TM)


Your bias is showing Alf - not least because your chain is so easy to yank!

 

[HapticSimian]

Apparently this shows a manual green flag (poor image quality) being waved in the box to his left just before he overtakes which (despite his steering display showing yellow) would override the electronic yellows:

/snip

I came across the same .gif just now. [-]Just trying to understand though: this looks like the start of a lap while the overtake happened at the end? Maybe I'm just not awake yet...[/-] OK, no - that waved green happens just before the overtake. I'm mixing up his overtakes on Vergne and Kobayashi, the latter happening under static yellows which are apparently shown to signify a slippery track. Thus, be careful but you are free to overtake. Vettel's title is safe as far as I'm concerned.

Here's the deal: the FIA sporting code stipulates that:

1. Lights may be used to supplement or replace waved red, yellow, green, blue and white flags.
2. Lights should flash at 3-4Hz
3. Light panels may be used to form visual representations of the yellow with red stripes flag, Safety Car board or other signals, which must be stipulated in the Supplementary Regulations of the event

What can we take from that? That any light representing a no-overtaking state MUST FLASH. If it's a non-flashing light it is likely a representation of the red/yellow striped flag which basically means 'be careful, but race on'. The poor lighting conditions and rain means that this isn't clear from onboard footage. This seems to be borne out by the control panel used by the marshals:



So no cover-up or conspiracy, but indeed just Ferrari being Ferrari if the rumblings are accurate.

I don't think Ferrari are going to get this one right.

Seems not.

On a side note... when do you think we're going to see 'multi-angle' broadcasts and a PVR to match? I'm thinking... three cameras (at least) broadcasted to three different channels - one primary and two secondary - where the user can change the angle at will while watching their sport...

I don't think I'll be willing to pay the R5k a month Multichoice would expect for such coverage.

 

[thestaggy]

This is weak. Alonso lost, Vettel won. He busted his nut trying to win and if it wasn't for the errors of others he'd be champion, even though he never had the fastest car on the track. Concede defeat, reload and get stuck in in 2013.

 

[HapticSimian]

This is weak. Alonso lost, Vettel won. He busted his nut trying to win and if it wasn't for the errors of others he'd be champion, even though he never had the fastest car on the track. Concede defeat, reload and get stuck in in 2013.

True to form, though. Both for Ferrari and Alonso. Handbag-swinging FTW!

 

[Tim182]

This is weak. Alonso lost, Vettel won. He busted his nut trying to win and if it wasn't for the errors of others he'd be champion, even though he never had the fastest car on the track. Concede defeat, reload and get stuck in in 2013.

If it wasn't for the fault of other Vettel would be 50 points ahead, not 3. Don't come with that argument

 

[killadoob]

This is weak. Alonso lost, Vettel won. He busted his nut trying to win and if it wasn't for the errors of others he'd be champion, even though he never had the fastest car on the track. Concede defeat, reload and get stuck in in 2013.

Vettel just cruised to the title as well hey, he never had a win in the bag and broke down, he didn't have to put in some of the most impressive drives of the season, he didn't have to fight hard to finish in the top 5 for the first 10 gp's?

Please vettel and alonso both deserved but vettel just landed it. Don't act like alonso was unlucky. Vettel had some terrible luck as well. Vettel won the championship because he drove like one. Alonso almost won it because he also drove like a champion.

 

[HapticSimian]

FIA deems Vettel pass legal, saying there is 'no case to answer'

The FIA has told media outlets there is "no case to answer" amid questions over the legality of an overtaking move by Sebastian Vettel on Jean-Eric Vergne at the Brazilian Grand Prix. Nevertheles, Ferrari has asked for clarification from the governing body.

The move in question saw Vettel overtake Vergne's Toro Rosso while yellow warning lights were still illuminated in his cockpit and as he approached a green trackside light. The suggestion is that he may have overtaken in a yellow flag zone, which is illegal, although the FIA told Autosport a green flag was waving at a marshal post before the move took place. As a result the move was legitimate and outside the yellow flag zone and therefore it was not referred to the stewards.

Earlier on Thursday Ferrari said it was looking at footage of the overtaking move in the knowledge it had until Friday to file an appeal. However, the team revealed on Twitter that it has gone no further than asking for a clarification on the issue.

"Ferrari asked, by means of a letter, for a clarification from FIA regarding VET's overtaking move on VER during lap 4 of the Brazilian GP," the official @InsideFerrari account tweeted.

However, with the FIA saying there is no case to answer in the media and Ferrari not lodging an official protest, it is highly unlikely the issue will go any further.

So, that's that then. Fuggin' whiners at Ferrari, sending letters 'n ****. Took me and good ol' google less than 40 minutes this morning to see there's no case, and I'd only just woken up.

 

[thestaggy]

If it wasn't for the fault of other Vettel would be 50 points ahead, not 3. Don't come with that argument

Vettel just cruised to the title as well hey, he never had a win in the bag and broke down, he didn't have to put in some of the most impressive drives of the season, he didn't have to fight hard to finish in the top 5 for the first 10 gp's?

Please vettel and alonso both deserved but vettel just landed it. Don't act like alonso was unlucky. Vettel had some terrible luck as well. Vettel won the championship because he drove like one. Alonso almost won it because he also drove like a champion.

Difference is everytime Vettel got punted/incurred a penalty he recovered to score points. Everytime Alonso got punted he took a scooter back to the pits.

Vettel's luck > Alonso's luck. No two ways about it.

We can also compare the reliability between Webber's Red Bull and Vettel's. Webber's races were often frustrated by KERS issues. Obviously Vettel is a better driver than Webber, but from a car perspective he didn't have the mid race reliability woes that Webber seemed to have every other Grand Prix.

In a tight championship lady luck smiled at Vettel.

 

[Tim182]

Difference is everytime Vettel got punted/incurred a penalty he recovered to score points. Everytime Alonso got punted he took a scooter back to the pits.

Vettel's luck > Alonso's luck. No two ways about it.

We can also compare the reliability between Webber's Red Bull and Vettel's. Webber's races were often frustrated by KERS issues. Obviously Vettel is a better driver than Webber, but from a car perspective he didn't have the mid race reliability woes that Webber seemed to have every other Grand Prix.

In a tight championship lady luck smiled at Vettel.

Erm.... No?

MAL: 12th place, no recovery
EUR: retired, no recovery
ITA: retired, no recovery

The only difference is that this all happened earlier in the season

Alonso only had two finishes outside the points, both retired. That's in BEL and JPN. So Vettel actually did better and had less luck, as on top of the DNFs he had to come back from the back of the grid so many times.

 

[Ou grote]

So, that's that then. Fuggin' whiners at Ferrari, sending letters 'n ****. Took me and good ol' google less than 40 minutes this morning to see there's no case, and I'd only just woken up.

Ferrari had no choice, any team would've done the same.
There's plenty of money, prestige etc involved.

Difference is everytime Vettel got punted/incurred a penalty he recovered to score points. Everytime Alonso got punted he took a scooter back to the pits.

Vettel's luck > Alonso's luck. No two ways about it.

We can also compare the reliability between Webber's Red Bull and Vettel's. Webber's races were often frustrated by KERS issues. Obviously Vettel is a better driver than Webber, but from a car perspective he didn't have the mid race reliability woes that Webber seemed to have every other Grand Prix.

In a tight championship lady luck smiled at Vettel.

The harder you practise, the luckier you get.

 

[Tim182]

Ferrari had no choice, any team would've done the same.
There's plenty of money, prestige etc involved.

The harder you practise, the luckier you get.

No they are just sore loosers.