F1 2012 thread

[vinodh]

NASCAR is actually exciting. I'm guessing you've never watched it if you bash it. Lead changes are frequent and those cars are ''alive''. it's not uncommin to see a lead car come in for a pit and suddenly go backwards, then come back in and make another change and surge forward again. NASCAR is one huge strategy fest. You have to decide if you're gonna change two or four tyres. you have to watch your fuel mileage - many a time a guy has taken a gamble and run out of fuel with the chequared flag literally within sight. You can set your trim levels mid-race to better run in traffic. Watch a race at Talladega or Daytona where you get 3 cars wide through a corner at 300 kays an hour. Watch two cars sit bumper-to-bumper in a push-pull effect and you appreciate how brave those guys are.

It's not a bad sport at all.

Its got nothing to do with skill, bravery or strategy.

Let me explain:Its about people that are never happy no matter what happens. NASCAR has the Lucky Dog rule, Competition Yellows and the Chase to create close competition. F1 introduces DRS and tires that wear at different rates and temps to previous years also to help with improving the level of competition and people are not happy. Already after my post someone mentioned "lottery". That would obviously mean that this years F1 race winners just won by pure luck. It had very little to do with the work done in advance by the drivers, engineers team managers that may have contributed to the victory. Maybe some teams are at the top of F1 because they work harder than other teams. Michael Schumachers comments regarding the tires and how they play too great a role in F1 these days is a typical example of sour grapes. When he was dominating the sport with a clear advantage over everyone else, he did not complain about races being spoiled. Rather amazingly, the teams that have always done well in F1 are this years races winners. If it truly was a lottery, then we would have seen a Marussia or Caterham suddenly pop out of nowhere and win.

NASCAR demands a lot of skill and strategy. If oval racing was a easy as turning left, then Juan-Pablo Montoya, winner of the Indy 500, multiple F1 race winner, IndyCar/ChampCar?CART (whatever they want to be called) world champ etc. would have won the Sprint Cup title long ago. My whole point of my previous post was that no matter what gets done to improve the spectacle of racing, people will still moan. Nothing will make people like that happy.

 

[AirWolf]

Already after my post someone mentioned "lottery". That would obviously mean that this years F1 race winners just won by pure luck. It had very little to do with the work done in advance by the drivers, engineers team managers that may have contributed to the victory. Maybe some teams are at the top of F1 because they work harder than other teams. Michael Schumachers comments regarding the tires and how they play too great a role in F1 these days is a typical example of sour grapes. When he was dominating the sport with a clear advantage over everyone else, he did not complain about races being spoiled. Rather amazingly, the teams that have always done well in F1 are this years races winners. If it truly was a lottery, then we would have seen a Marussia or Caterham suddenly pop out of nowhere and win.

No need to say someone - just quote me.

Please refresh your memory on when Williams last won an F1 GP. They are by no means the team they used to be, and yet even they managed a win.

No one is doubting the hard work put into F1 - under usual circumstances hard work by the best teams yields good results consistently. This year even the best team/driver combos are inconsistent.

 

[g0nt4du]

No need to say someone - just quote me.

Please refresh your memory on when Williams last won an F1 GP. They are by no means the team they used to be, and yet even they managed a win.

No one is doubting the hard work put into F1 - under usual circumstances hard work by the best teams yields good results consistently. This year even the best team/driver combos are inconsistent.

I think you are missing out a little detail though. The consistency in the rules. The engines have barely changed and the aeros regulations haven't significantly gone crazy. The last craziness was with the F-Duct and double diffuser and there we saw no lottery and clear superiority. There is also some cost cutting that has slightly evened out the field.

This year's races are putting more of the pressure back on the drivers to manage their tires and that's why we are seeing inconsistency. We also see that Hamilton is learning. And we also see that somebody who wins in GP2 does not most of the time end up at the back of the grid (like in previous years).

I think Sauber and Williams are doing well because of this stability combined with their drivers actual skill. Both Maldonado and Perez seem to be extremely skilled but also brought money into those teams.

 

[JerryMungo]

This year so far is about new environment with the tyres - those who can adapt quicker will end up being more consistentent quicker. Obviously manufacturers are a big part of that - if they can't set the aero up to conserve tyres, it puts alot of pressure on the driver.

 

[thestaggy]

I think you are missing out a little detail though. The consistency in the rules. The engines have barely changed and the aeros regulations haven't significantly gone crazy. The last craziness was with the F-Duct and double diffuser and there we saw no lottery and clear superiority. There is also some cost cutting that has slightly evened out the field.

This year's races are putting more of the pressure back on the drivers to manage their tires and that's why we are seeing inconsistency. We also see that Hamilton is learning. And we also see that somebody who wins in GP2 does not most of the time end up at the back of the grid (like in previous years).

I think Sauber and Williams are doing well because of this stability combined with their drivers actual skill. Both Maldonado and Perez seem to be extremely skilled but also brought money into those teams.

I think the blown diffuser and repositioning of the exhaust outlets can be classed as ''significant'' changes. That altered the entire dynamic of the car's performance at low speeds. Red Bull are the poster boys of how massive that change was.

If anything those changes - especially the blown diffuser - pushed the field closer together. Add the tyre lottery and it makes for very unpredictable racing, which is a good thing, but to say it is entirely natural is not exactly true.

 

[thestaggy]

Its got nothing to do with skill, bravery or strategy.

Let me explain:Its about people that are never happy no matter what happens. NASCAR has the Lucky Dog rule, Competition Yellows and the Chase to create close competition. F1 introduces DRS and tires that wear at different rates and temps to previous years also to help with improving the level of competition and people are not happy. Already after my post someone mentioned "lottery". That would obviously mean that this years F1 race winners just won by pure luck. It had very little to do with the work done in advance by the drivers, engineers team managers that may have contributed to the victory. Maybe some teams are at the top of F1 because they work harder than other teams. Michael Schumachers comments regarding the tires and how they play too great a role in F1 these days is a typical example of sour grapes. When he was dominating the sport with a clear advantage over everyone else, he did not complain about races being spoiled. Rather amazingly, the teams that have always done well in F1 are this years races winners. If it truly was a lottery, then we would have seen a Marussia or Caterham suddenly pop out of nowhere and win.

NASCAR demands a lot of skill and strategy. If oval racing was a easy as turning left, then Juan-Pablo Montoya, winner of the Indy 500, multiple F1 race winner, IndyCar/ChampCar?CART (whatever they want to be called) world champ etc. would have won the Sprint Cup title long ago. My whole point of my previous post was that no matter what gets done to improve the spectacle of racing, people will still moan. Nothing will make people like that happy.

Spain's two-time world champion Fernando Alonso has joined the criticism of the new Pirelli tyres set to be used when the Formula One season begins later this month.

"With Pirelli, we can't brake hard enough ... and the traction has deteriorated," the Ferrari driver told the Spanish daily El Pais published on Monday.

"Previously when I reached the end of the straight I braked as hard as I could. If I do that now, they (the tyres) block, especially the back ones," the Spaniard said.

Italian manufacturer Pirelli takes over from Japan's Bridgestone as the new and exclusive supplier of tyres for the 2011 Formula One season, which begins with the Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne on March 27.

World champion Sebastian Vettel has also been far from impressed with Pirelli.

"The problem is the tyres wear down too fast," the German Red Bull driver told German television channel ServusTV recently.

"They are only good for 16 or 17 laps, then they start to break up and are ruined, then the driver doesn't have a chance.

"The feeling when driving is different and that is a pity for us." -- AFP

* Note - These two complained BEFORE the season even started and well before Michael.

Vettel and Alonso are also in the prime of their careers and in the thick end of the championship race, so criticism is not just coming from one sour German who is struggling. There is no ways these drivers are driving as hard and as fast as they can. I'm enjoying the unpredictability of the racing, but at the same time I am also aware that it is not a 100% true refelction of the performance abilities of the cars and drivers. The last race is a prime example. Grosjean and Perez are good, but lets not try and convince ourselves that they are superior racers to Alonso and Vettel. They just managed their tyres better and beat the two drivers combing for 4 World Championships due to their tyres not falling away.

 

[g0nt4du]

* Note - These two complained BEFORE the season even started and well before Michael.

Vettel and Alonso are also in the prime of their careers and in the thick end of the championship race, so criticism is not just coming from one sour German who is struggling. There is no ways these drivers are driving as hard and as fast as they can. I'm enjoying the unpredictability of the racing, but at the same time I am also aware that it is not a 100% true refelction of the performance abilities of the cars and drivers. The last race is a prime example. Grosjean and Perez are good, but lets not try and convince ourselves that they are superior racers to Alonso and Vettel. They just managed their tyres better and beat the two drivers combing for 4 World Championships due to their tyres not falling away.

Schumacher's comments were a little over the top though. Him saying maybe that's not how the racing is supposed to be or not. Its like me going from one race series to another saying ya the other one had that better. you are in the series, there are rules and you are to be the best under them correct?

Anyway, yes Grosjean and Perez are not better drivers than the other two. But that's in the usual aspects of speed, etc. Their current car driver combo is sometimes better at tyre management than the senior drivers correct? And since tyre management is now a crucial aspect of the sport, I think their places are well deserved. In fact given that Alonso and Vettel are known to be more talented, it shows that either their cars are really bad at tire management taking the best of their abilities to match up to the field, or that tire management is not their strongest suit. e.g. Hamilton and Vettel are good wet weather drivers. Alonso is a specialist and going beyond what the car does. Schumacher is sheer brilliance when it comes to tactics. Button is a good strategist and excels at mixed conditions. Kimi is something sometimes.

 

[g0nt4du]

I think the blown diffuser and repositioning of the exhaust outlets can be classed as ''significant'' changes. That altered the entire dynamic of the car's performance at low speeds. Red Bull are the poster boys of how massive that change was.

If anything those changes - especially the blown diffuser - pushed the field closer together. Add the tyre lottery and it makes for very unpredictable racing, which is a good thing, but to say it is entirely natural is not exactly true.

yes they are significant. that's why I said

The last craziness was with the F-Duct and double diffuser and there we saw no lottery and clear superiority

that is where I implied Red Bull. It is entirely possible that the newer rules have suited the strengths of more teams on the grid than they have before!

 

[killadoob]

Perez is a great driver, looks to me like he could be a world champion one day. Remember how he chased a two time champion until he got the call to back off?

 

[JerryMungo]

* Note - These two complained BEFORE the season even started and well before Michael.

Vettel and Alonso are also in the prime of their careers and in the thick end of the championship race, so criticism is not just coming from one sour German who is struggling. There is no ways these drivers are driving as hard and as fast as they can. I'm enjoying the unpredictability of the racing, but at the same time I am also aware that it is not a 100% true refelction of the performance abilities of the cars and drivers. The last race is a prime example. Grosjean and Perez are good, but lets not try and convince ourselves that they are superior racers to Alonso and Vettel. They just managed their tyres better and beat the two drivers combing for 4 World Championships due to their tyres not falling away.

Um... Alonso whinging? Now there's something new lol.
The problem I have with this is Alonso is in effect saying...

Before Pirelli, I could stamp on the brakes, now I have to be careful and skillfully slow the car down at every corner. It's not like he's the only one having to do this - everyone is at the same disadvantage. Adapt or die

 

[g0nt4du]

Perez is a great driver, looks to me like he could be a world champion one day. Remember how he chased a two time champion until he got the call to back off?

yeah!! for fear of noob errors !

Um... Alonso whinging? Now there's something new lol.
The problem I have with this is Alonso is in effect saying...

Before Pirelli, I could stamp on the brakes, now I have to be careful and skillfully slow the car down at every corner. It's not like he's the only one having to do this - everyone is at the same disadvantage. Adapt or die

exactly. no reason to whine. its not a selectively applied rule.

 

[JerryMungo]

yeah!! for fear of noob errors !

exactly. no reason to whine. its not a selectively applied rule.

To be fair to Alonso, we may be taking him out of context. I suspect he was voicing frustrations about the physics of it all and not that he was disadvantaged per se or whinging as such. Media aren't known for getting the real story across.

 

[g0nt4du]

To be fair to Alonso, we may be taking him out of context. I suspect he was voicing frustrations about the physics of it all and not that he was disadvantaged per se or whinging as such. Media aren't known for getting the real story across.

Oh yes definitely, I have immense respect for him! My whining comment was aimed more towards Schumacher ! Also respect for his skills except for his underhanded stuff sometimes. Like driving into others

 

[vinodh]

When the tires lasted for three quarters of a race and drivers like Mika "maximum attack" Hakkinen and Michael Schumacher could drive the car on the limit for lap after lap,other drivers either adapted to that style of driving or got left behind. Last year, when Hamilton was getting whipped by Button, lots of people said that the new tires did not suit Hamilton's style. He somehow figured out how to make the tires work for him this year. Alonso is probably the driver that closest to a metronome: continuous, sustained high performance. Unfortunately, driving to look after tires like you are in endurance racing does not seem to suit his style or Michael Schumacher's for example. Like it was said in previous posts the rules are the same for everyone. When the rules change again soon, it might suit other drivers better than what it suits some drivers now. Only time will tell.

 

[BigAl-sa]

Not trying to be a grammar nazi, but it's tyres guys, not tires.

 

[JerryMungo]

Not trying to be a grammar nazi, but it's tyres guys, not tires.

I'm tyred of pointing that out myself!

 

[thestaggy]

Um... Alonso whinging? Now there's something new lol.
The problem I have with this is Alonso is in effect saying...

Before Pirelli, I could stamp on the brakes, now I have to be careful and skillfully slow the car down at every corner. It's not like he's the only one having to do this - everyone is at the same disadvantage. Adapt or die

exactly. no reason to whine. its not a selectively applied rule.

The thing is, late braking IS a skill. Not any driver has the confidence, or quite frankly, the nutsack to run deep into a corner. You are talking about a man, who is quite possibly the best driver on the grid, not having the confidence in the tyres to race his natural race. Further more, between Vettel, Alonso and Michael, we are looking at 11 World Championships, that correlates to supreme driving ability and neither one has the ability to race on the edge due to these tyres.

I can't see how you can defend tyre management being the be-all-and-end all in a sport long famed for being at the pinnacle of technology, speed and driving ability. These guys are probably riding at 80% of their talent for the bulk of the race to make sure they get to the chequered flag in a good position.

I know everybody has to cope with it and obviously the likes of Lotus, Sauber and Williams are not going to complain because it pushes the lead drivers and cars closer to them. It's not as if Sauber and Williams have made massive performance gains, it's just that the top drivers, who are used to racing on the edge seeing as all but three of them (Webber, Rosberg and if you include Mass) have won titles, are being forced to limit what they do. It's a case of making the rich man poorer and not the poor man richer to level the field.

Exciting results but not a true reflection of the outright pace of a driver. Basically, who ever can p****y-foot around the track the fastest, wins. The driver that takes his car by the scruff of the neck and races is going to go backwards, and through no lack of ability.

 

[JerryMungo]

You are talking about a man, who is quite possibly the best driver on the grid, not having the confidence in the tyres to race his natural race.

His 'natural race' should evolve with the package, if it can't, then he's clearly not up to it. If some youngster is able to do the job better than a 2x WC then the youngster is the better driver. Having a car that is capable of being hammered to the last minute doesn't make a good driver. I like this kind of thing. I don't like the equasion being THAT wide open where nobody knows what the tyres will do from race to race, so perhaps in a year time everyone will have settled... but having to be careful with the car takes driving skill. I watch for that.

It's too often not the outright pace of a driver, but the outright pace of a car. I'd like to see what a skilled driver can do with a touchy car.

 

[thestaggy]

His 'natural race' should evolve with the package, if it can't, then he's clearly not up to it. If some youngster is able to do the job better than a 2x WC then the youngster is the better driver. Having a car that is capable of being hammered to the last minute doesn't make a good driver. I like this kind of thing. I don't like the equasion being THAT wide open where nobody knows what the tyres will do from race to race, so perhaps in a year time everyone will have settled... but having to be careful with the car takes driving skill. I watch for that.

It's too often not the outright pace of a driver, but the outright pace of a car. I'd like to see what a skilled driver can do with a touchy car.

You totally overlook the whole point of late braking being an advantageous skill. You also totally overlook the fact that drivers are driving within themselves to get their cars across the line in a decent position. And I don't see how an engineer coming on the radio and telling you to slow down to meet your tyre target is a skill. ''We know you can probably go half a second to a second a lap faster but we don't want you to because these cr@p tyres will disappear from under you in about 5 laps at this speed''. That is not skill. That is Pirelli making a tyre that wears unreasonably fast to meet Bernie Ecclestone's demands for a more exciting product.

Essentially, Alonso has to become a neutered version of himself to achieve something. No ballsy late braking and no thrashing the car around the track. It's all about backing off and going easy. You call it adapting, I call it not driving to maximum ability.

 

[AirWolf]

This is like the BEE version of F1 .

Giving less skilled / technologically advanced / financially disadvantaged teams near equal footing with the superior teams not through assistance but by hampering better teams.