F1 2013 thread

[HapticSimian]

I am generally in favour of team orders being allowed and out in the open - far better than the farcical last lap "low hydraulic pressure" radio messages the teams had to use in the past - we all knew what was going on anyway. I have a concern, though, that later in the season when there's a clear No 1 championship contender, teams may start to take this to extremes - for example :
On a low downforce circuit like Monza,
Short fuel the No 2 car with only enough fuel for 75% of the race distance so it can get out in front within the first couple of laps.
Short fuel the No 1 car enough to give it a weight & speed advantage in the first few laps and get in behind No 2
Use the No 2 as an aerodynamic 'tow' car, reducing the No 1's fuel consumption and increasing the overall speed, pulling out a huge gap on the rest of the field - No 1 will also have DRS on the straights to further reduce drag & save fuel.
Retire the No 2 car with a "Hydraulic pressure problem" before it runs out of fuel, leaving No 1 to go on and win the race in fuel save mode with the engine turned down ...

Not exactly sportsmanlike, but does anyone think it could be deemed illegal ? It's just team orders being taken to a whole new level ..

F1 is thankfully, I think, way too different from NASCAR for this to ever work. We saw yesterday again how detrimental it is to one's tyres to follow a car too closely, and even on Monza you are accelerating from below 120km/h twice per lap. What works in NASCAR-bricks won't translate well to the aerodynamics-ruled world of F1.

 

[thestaggy]

Hes a race car driver, its what he does. Nico should have done the same, its only 2 GPs into the season, stuff team orders!
I think the new rules should only allow team orders in the last 5 GPs, yesterday was embarrassing for the drivers and the teams and the sport.

What do their contracts say? That would be interesting to know. If you sign on the dotted line acknowledging that you will obey team orders then technically you may be found in breach of contract if you do not follow team orders.

I fully agree that it is way too early for team orders, in fact I think team orders outside of do-or-die to win a championship in the last 2/3 races is a load of tosh, but if it is part of their contracts then they must comply.

 

[JerryMungo]

Yeah, and teams get paid big bucks for points so they don't want to take chances with the potential for retirements etc. They want every point they can get.

The problem that was displayed for the world to see this weekend is that you can't tell your front runner to save his engine, tyres and fuel (let's face it - these tyres can fall off very suddenly), and have your second man take advantage of it. That's ultimately bad for the entire team, especially if your #2 acts like an immature child who can't see past the points in front of him.

Vettel's move on his team mate in Turkey not so long ago is likely still fresh in Christian Horner's mind.

Don't get me wrong, I'm dislike team orders like the next fan, but with the modern setup (fuelled to the end, high tyre wear), you can't, as a team, just let your drivers go full tilt for the last few laps at the risk of losing position to the chasing team or running out of fuel. In that case, duelling drivers are likely to let the team down.

They need to bring back refuelling IMO, that way you can have two drivers on totally different strategies.

 

[Q-Tech]

F1 is thankfully, I think, way too different from NASCAR for this to ever work. We saw yesterday again how detrimental it is to one's tyres to follow a car too closely, and even on Monza you are accelerating from below 120km/h twice per lap. What works in NASCAR-bricks won't translate well to the aerodynamics-ruled world of F1.

You're probably right - If there was any chance of something like this working, one of the teams would probably have done it already - I'd like to see someone try, though, would have to be a supreme display of driving skill & concentration from both drivers to make it work.

 

[JerryMungo]

You're probably right - If there was any chance of something like this working, one of the teams would probably have done it already - I'd like to see someone try, though, would have to be a supreme display of driving skill & concentration from both drivers to make it work.

I recall getting a tow was much bigger in the days of the old turbos, but the modern diffusers put a damper on that among other things. Tyre wear has been a big factor since cars have been fuelled to the end and since Bridgestone have left.

 

[craigdoepie]

My point on the whole Vettel and Weber thing is that Vettel was acting like a child and throwing his toys out the cot. Red Bull was 1st and 2nd and the manoeuvrings he used to overtake Weber was dangerous and could of cost Red Bull major points. Yes Vettel was faster and the team should of probably let him past, but its only the 2nd race of the season and every point does count. But its also a team sport. Yes it was entertaining, but like someone said. Its a team sport and not an individual sport.

Where as the Merc dilemma, Roseberg was much faster than Hamilton and the team chose Hamilton as they believe he is the better driver and he has a better chance of winning the championship. Maybe they had other ulterior motives, but that is the way I see it.

Red Bull and Merc also were probably looking long term. 1st and 2nd for Red Bull and 3rd and 4th were guaranteed so why push the limits, let the engine and all other parts relax and think of the next 17 races. Vettel was just thinking of himself and was selfish, where as Roseberg was the bigger man and accepted the team orders. Overtake if you faster, but do it responsibly, especially if it is your teammate.

 

[2026]

My point on the whole Vettel and Weber thing is that Vettel was acting like a child and throwing his toys out the cot. Red Bull was 1st and 2nd and the manoeuvrings he used to overtake Weber was dangerous and could of cost Red Bull major points. Yes Vettel was faster and the team should of probably let him past, but its only the 2nd race of the season and every point does count. But its also a team sport. Yes it was entertaining, but like someone said. Its a team sport and not an individual sport.

Where as the Merc dilemma, Roseberg was much faster than Hamilton and the team chose Hamilton as they believe he is the better driver and he has a better chance of winning the championship. Maybe they had other ulterior motives, but that is the way I see it.

Red Bull and Merc also were probably looking long term. 1st and 2nd for Red Bull and 3rd and 4th were guaranteed so why push the limits, let the engine and all other parts relax and think of the next 17 races. Vettel was just thinking of himself and was selfish, where as Roseberg was the bigger man and accepted the team orders. Overtake if you faster, but do it responsibly, especially if it is your teammate.

I find teammates taking each other on entertaining, same car, same team, different settings, different strategies and very high risks for the team... it's fantastic!

 

[m4dh4tt3r]

This is why I dont watch F1 anymore, Seriously the whole team orders thing is a load of bull****. Go watch MotoGP or World Superbikes and they do not give damn team orders, The first world superbike race of this year attests to that. Watch the supercross in America and you can see teammates knock into each other fighting for the position. In all other forms of racing where teams are involved they do not run the sport and decide the positions their guys should come. To me F1 has been destroyed because of it and the amount of ridiculous rules is pathetic. Racing is a dangerous sport and all competitors know it, They are not there because they want to be safe and have a team decide how they can race. In supercross last year a guy got jumped on and broke his back and several other bones and you know what he is back out there this year ready to fight for wins.

I am really dissapointed with F1 and I am not sure if I can call it a motorsport anymore because it just seems ridiculous these days.

 

[JerryMungo]

I dont think Merc chose Hamilton for any reason other than he fought at the front and held it together for most of the race. It was only in the last few laps that he was challenged. As a team principal, if you're going to let tell your driver to let his teammate past, you have to afford him the same opportunity to use DRS to his advantage. The trouble with that is, as Rosberg and Hamilton already did up to that point, you have your drivers passing each other twice a lap at risk to the team. The solution is to tell them both to tune their engines down and save them for the next race. As long as team orders are legal, that will almost always happen.

 

[kaaskop]

O ya two faced Webber.

To quote Webber after Silverstone 2011:

“Of course I ignored the team because I wanted to try and get a place. Seb was doing his best, I was doing my best. I wasn’t going to crash with anyone… Four or five laps to go, they started to chat to me about holding my position. I wanted the points but I also wanted to get some more points as well. I just wanted to race to the end and I’m sure if it had been the other way round it would have been like that as well.”

Remember last year in Brazil?

Webber go play Gt4 on your playstation. Leave F1 for the real drivers.

 

[killadoob]

I dont think Merc chose Hamilton for any reason other than he fought at the front and held it together for most of the race. It was only in the last few laps that he was challenged. As a team principal, if you're going to let tell your driver to let his teammate past, you have to afford him the same opportunity to use DRS to his advantage. The trouble with that is, as Rosberg and Hamilton already did up to that point, you have your drivers passing each other twice a lap at risk to the team. The solution is to tell them both to tune their engines down and save them for the next race. As long as team orders are legal, that will almost always happen.

Tell me something though, if they under fuel his car, surely hamilton will fight harder and be faster than a heavier team mate who has fueled his car to reach the end of the gp without having to go slowly for 15 laps, so essentially what they did is make hamilton faster then make him much much much slower while rosberg had thought about the entire race.

Vettel was sneaky, merc robbed rosberg, hamilton didn't feel too good about it and i am sure nico was pissed off as well.

As far as i am aware gp's don't finish until the end obviously, so basically you are saying it's fine for hamilton to go faster and then have to basically limp home while rosberg must sit behind him purely because rosberg had fuel for the entire gp and maybe rosberg didn't know the race ends after the last stop. Someone should inform him so he can under fuel as well next gp and perhaps beat hamilton before the race ends after his last pitstop.

 

[JerryMungo]

It's possible they underfuelled him, but certainly not so that he could beat his teammate. Bottom line is they were both told to cool it at the end. I feel for Rosberg, but as long as the wheel turns, there's nothing much you or I can do about it. Team orders suck, that was a brilliant race to show why.

But seriously... Vettel telling the team to get Mark out the way was as arrogant as they get.

 

[Sinbad]

Seb's punishment:




Also I didn't view it as arrogant... I saw it as him trying to avoid having to make a risky pass if possible.

 

[JerryMungo]

Oh, I dunno, he put that doubt out of my mind after ignoring the team and doing his own thing at the end of the race. That was a very risky pass... and he's no stranger to taking his team mate out.

 

[craigdoepie]

Oh, I dunno, he put that doubt out of my mind after ignoring the team and doing his own thing at the end of the race. That was a very risky pass... and he's no stranger to taking his team mate out.

My thing at the end of the day, his BOSS told him to hold off and he did not listen. Most people would get fired for that
And the other thing is that it was a risky pass, I personally would not of complained or think much if the pass wasn't so risky. I still say Vettel was selfish and this is coming from a guy who likes Vettel

But at the end of the day everyone has there own opinion and now to wait 3 weeks for the next race.

 

[thestaggy]

I lol'd.

 

[ScottulusMaximus]

3 weeks, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! Surely this can't be good for viewership, just getting in to the swing of the new season and now we gotta wait 3 weeks.. Seems illogical to me

 

[HapticSimian]

3 weeks, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! Surely this can't be good for viewership, just getting in to the swing of the new season and now we gotta wait 3 weeks.. Seems illogical to me

Be glad. We could always have 19 races back-to-back and go 7 and a half months between seasons if that'll work for you.

 

[ScottulusMaximus]

Be glad. We could always have 19 races back-to-back and go 7 and a half months between seasons if that'll work for you.

Rather that than being teased...

 

[JerryMungo]