F1 2022

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The Door said:
Porsche and RB are two racing companies but one owns 50% of the other. Who's IP is who's? Are they genuinely competing?

There's already plenty of conflicts of interest in a sport where your competitor designs, manufactures and supplies you parts for your competition equipment. It's certainly not neutral, we've just come to accept it.

This isn't the early years of the sport where you're free to innovate and can trump your suppliers. They design their parts for their chassis and their chassis for their parts. You have to make stuff fit within strict regs as a customer team.
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Porsche hasn't said they're starting their own team.
 
Messugga said:
Who knows. They could keep both names. Mercedes McLaren, anyone?
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Mercedes McLaren are a McLaren Chassis with a Mercedes Power Unit.
Porsche Redbull would be a Redbull Chassis with a RBPU(Honda) Power Unit but, as Porsche are also an engine manufacturer and Supplier, a definite conflict of interest as it would imply to the general public that the Redbull was powered by Porsche.
 
The Door said:
So back to my original q then.
So it's no 2 then?
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And per my original response: who knows? Unless someone on this forum is sitting in the boardrooms where this stuff is being discussed, nobody will know. It only just got announced that the purchase of the stake is happening, not in a particularly formal way, and you're demanding exact details. You're really just looking for an argument.
 
caroper said:
Mercedes McLaren are a McLaren Chassis with a Mercedes Power Unit.
Porsche Redbull would be a Redbull Chassis with a RBPU(Honda) Power Unit but Porsche are also an engine manufacturer and Supplier so a definite conflict of interest.
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Unless Porsche buys the RBPT IP? Do i understand that correctly?
 
caroper said:
Mercedes McLaren are a McLaren Chassis with a Mercedes Power Unit.
Porsche Redbull would be a Redbull Chassis with a RBPU(Honda) Power Unit but, as Porsche are also an engine manufacturer and Supplier, a definite conflict of interest.
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Porsche hasn't been confirmed as an engine manufacturer in F1.
 
The Door said:
Red Bull, its sister squad AlphaTauri will in all likelihood also compete with Porsche power
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There in lays the crux. If they actually supply a PU then no problem, but if the teams continue to use the Honda PU (with RBPU Branding) until 2026 then it is, as per the original question, a conflict of interest.
 
The Door said:
Or the RBPU is rebranded Porsche and the use it to compete
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But if the RBPU is still being built and maintained by Honda Staff and is Honda IP how can they rebrand it?
Porsche would have to buy the IP and Replace the Staff.
And that could well effect RB's current dominance.
 
caroper said:
But if the RBPU is still being built and maintained by Honda Staff and is Honda IP how can they rebrand it?
Porsche would have to buy the IP and Replace the Staff.
And that could well effect RB's current dominance.
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The IP belongs to Red Bull Powertrains.
They wouldn't need to replace staff. They can keep the existing staff. Companies get sold constantly without staff being replaced.
 
Problem solved:

Has Porsche bought a 50% stake in Red Bull?​

Germany's Motorsport-Total has obtained documents that appear to suggest the deal is done.

Seemingly, the merger between Porsche and Red Bull Technology, which manufactures the F1 team's chassis, amongst other things, was subject to approval by various international antitrust authorities, both in and outside the European Union, in order to comply with anti-competition laws.

Motorsport-Total reveals that details of Porsche's planned entry in 2026 are confirmed in a document issued by Morocco's Conseil de la Concurrence - and, ironically lodged on the Friday of the Austrian GP weekend - which details the intent for Porsche to acquire 50% of Red Bull Technology Ltd, the aim being the development and production of a power unit for the Austrian team.
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The Deal is for 2026 when the Honda IP expires so there is NO conflict of interest. Honda Themselves are considering an entry in 2026 too so they will compete not conflict.
 
The Door said:
Or the RBPU is rebranded Porsche and the use it to compete
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Porsche don't want to rebrand rbpt because the won't get the development tokens afforded to "new" engine manufacturers in 2026. They want to set up technically a new entry but while still using all of the Honda and rbpt IP, it's proper F1 levels of pedantic.

The Door said:
...and now both RB and Audi being part of the VW stable....
A bit like Ferrari and Fiat competing.
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Lol, fiat owns ferrari and alfa. Still not a conflict.

Porsche is going to be the engine manufacturer for RB and AT. Audi will buy Sauber and run it as a works team, probably running Porsche engines but rebranded because the VW group is paranoid about people working out everyone they own.

Frankly the entire VW group can **** right off IMO, F1 is bending over backwards for their requests on the new engines with extra irrelevant hybrid crap.

They should be going exactly the opposite direction and simplifying the engines to turbo V6, run it like a sport instead of a supposed tech demo. Then focus on the sustainability of fuels where research is actually needed.

Hybrid is dead, the future of basic personal transport is electric and ride share which F1 should NEVER be a test for, it is against the entire heart of the sport. Stop trying to find a middle ground between this and enthusiasts, split the market but that is entirely against every corporate marketing strategy ever.

There will always be a use case for burning liquid to move you, it makes sense to make this as sustainable as possible moving forward and F1 can actually help with this, the 2026 sustainable goal is great.

Gimme an hour with Ross and Casey, I'll make them see sense

/rant

EDIT: and don't get me started on the absolute stupidity of focusing on a race cars efficiency using like 300l of fuel over a competitive weekend when the amount of jet fuel or diesel used to just get the car to the damn track is orders of magnitude higher.
 
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Messugga said:
The IP belongs to Red Bull Powertrains.
They wouldn't need to replace staff. They can keep the existing staff. Companies get sold constantly without staff being replaced.
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i refer you back to page 306:
"Japanese manufacturer had agreed a deal which would see Red Bull set up its own powertrains division using Honda's IP and many of its staff in order to continue using its technology for the duration of the current engine formula."
 
caroper said:
Problem solved:

Has Porsche bought a 50% stake in Red Bull?​



The Deal is for 2026 when the Honda IP expires so there is NO conflict of interest. Honda Themselves are considering an entry in 2026 too so they will compete not conflict.
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There we go, pedantic.

It's all a bit daft to get around the freezes.
 
caroper said:
i refer you back to page 306:
"Japanese manufacturer had agreed a deal which would see Red Bull set up its own powertrains division using Honda's IP and many of its staff in order to continue using its technology for the duration of the current engine formula."
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You're right. Up to 2026 when the new engine regs kick in.
Which is when Porsche and Audi are looking to enter F1. So there we go. Toro Roso becomes Audi F1, Red Bull becomes Porsche, Porsche becomes an engine supplier to whatever teams are interested. And Verstappen said he'll retire in 2028 if he can no longer get wins. So that gives him 2 years to see how his new employers perform.
There we go. Maximum speculation.
 
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